EGGO

Actually, the answer to that question really is just how many times people have been coming to me saying that God exists. It's not that I'm questioning because he's right there in front of me and I want to rebel (which is undoubtedly not the reason why). It's because people, nay, the creators of God himself, comes to me and try to shove him down my throat.

Well, for me, the power of God must be becoming less and less powerful. Back then he would flood the world, heal the blind, etc...now he's just blessing football teams to win the trophy, or have certain people live a disaster while many more die in it. (There's evidence shows that the great flood was a big movement of water creating the Black Sea if I recall)

It's not so much as that there's lack of proof, it's the lame excuses I hear that he DOES exist. i.e. "You must have faith that he exists".

So please, tell me about the other religions out there that have such a strong tie to their god(s). Obviously, if their ties and faith are strong, then (according to what your argument is stating) their god(s) exist.

Well hell, God isn't exactly a trinity anymore huh?

[edit] Oh carp, I accidentally pressed quote instead of edit....

pariah

Who are you to tell me what I have "faith" in? As applied to religion, specifically Christianity, this is the most fitting definition of faith:

faith: firm belief in something for which there is no proof

So...what was the point in the analogies(ys????)? Now, for example, I could see the faith thing working about my girlfriend banging the neighbor if I had no evidence for it and then accused her...but other than that...

Whispers

I am not sure if the influence or God is getting any less. Remember, atheists are in the minority. Not that this actually means anything in of itself.

To the person that said about what Buddhists do or do not feel, I am familiar with this because I have been a practicing Therevadan Buddhist for about 8 years. I understand a little about their practices and lifestyle and how this can be conducive to leading a content and happy life. Perhaps the monks do have the secret of happiness, who knows? I have met a few monks and when listening to and speaking with them, I am always impressed with just how present and at peace they seem.

However, happiness is not everything, or is it? Is happiness a test for truth? I can be happy when I discover I have won the lottery, only to find out that I made a mistake when reading the numers and have not actually won at all. I could inject myself with heroin and feel gloriously happy. Would that be any indication that I was leading a life in touch with truth? When I said the monks lead Godly lives, I mean it in the sense that they are extremely moral beings, with a practice which is conducive to deep compassion and understanding. Is the vow of the Boddhisatva, a vow to refrain from entering enlightenment untill every being is saved? To me, this is a massive sacrifice for beings that have no worth other than what they are assigned by any given individual.

Anyway, if I was being extremely cynical, I could ask how do you know for definite whether this test proved anything of real significance, and what your actions are following this particular test. Did you change your life at all, once you discovered that Buddhist monks are the happiest beings? Did they test every spiritual tradition? Did they perform this test once only, or multiple times? Even if Buddhist monks are always happier, then what? Did the people that performed the tests reveal their own faith? Are you offeing the same level of cynicism to these results as you do to the potential existence of God? If not, why not? Because some "scientists" said so?

I cited example of faith within our own lives, as examples of how it plays a part for all of us, and how we do not always exist day to day using only proof as a means to develop relationships and understanding with others.

Joe V.

Whispers, you're not asking me to have faith in your god, you're asking me to have faith in you and your claims. This is a very important distinction. Part of the reason why I trust scientists is because they can back up their claims with evidence, evidence that I can look at and verify myself if I am suspicious of their claims. In order to take you and your claims seriously, I need to see convincing evidence that supports them. If you can't provide any convincing evidence, why should I take you seriously? Give me a good reason why I shouldn't just conclude that you're selling me snake oil.

- Joe

Whispers

Hi Joe,

I only ask you to have faith that I am not lying in what I say, and that I am not here to decieve or mislead. My motivation is too learn and bounce ideas back and forth with the learned people on this forum. Remember that I offer you the same space of trust that I request, and unless you prove otherwise I will believe what you say to me is truthful.

Whilst Scientists can back up their claims with evidence, how often do you actually get to see the evidence itself. For example, if a super-computer ran a code which estimated the likeliness of there being a creator God, as less than 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00001%, and Scientists published their findings in National Geographic, Time and other magazines, would you believe the finding? Would you repeat the experiment to get the same results? If they gave you their original papers and all test results, would that PROVE what they said was true? How would you know whether all sorts of hocus pocus had not been going on, and that they had falsified the results? What about if they missed out a crucial element which adversely effected the results?

Believeing what Scientists say, because what they say can be checked is all well and good, providing YOU do the checking....Do you? If not, you are probably relying on the words of other Scientists to confirm the original test. Do you have FAITH in what they say? Do you TRUST them?

Hawkingfan

The saying is "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." Therefore, since the above claims are not extraordinary, it would not require extraordinary evidence. I would say that I believe you think you have god in your life. If you said you were married, it's not a big deal. Since marriage is a normal everyday thing in reality, there is no reason to require much evidence. Same thing if you were 30. But if you said you were 130 then I would require evidence.
I trust my partner and colleagues because of past experiences. I distrust the media for the same reason.

It really depends on how extraordinary the claim is. If a scientist all of a sudden said that the earth is no longer spherical, I would have to see the evidence. And I could perform my own tests to double check.
But as far as discoveries in physics or something, the scientific community has to independently verify evidence and the tests must be repeatable to be legitimate. And science is always refining itself (unlike the bible and koran), and scientists understand theories can change and be modified.

I don't believe in miracles or the supernatural because these things have been tested for and shown to be non-existant. There is proof that it is bunk.

Quote:

If you have a dad, is he really your biological father? If you say yes, how do you know FOR DEFINITE? Maybe you can find out, but how do you know right now? You don’t do you, its taken on faith and trust, like so many many things?

Looks will give it away. But it is pointless since this is not an extraordinary claim.
That is correct since the heart is an organ responsible for circulating the blood throughout the body. It has nothing to do with speech, feelings, or thoughts. That would be your brain.
Actually, your heart has blood in it. Thought, reflection, emotion, and insight come from the cerebrum.

Joe V.

Giving you the benefit of the doubt, I'll trust you to say that you really believe what you say, but you didn't answer the question. If you can't provide me with convincing evidence that your claims are true, why should I take you seriously?

I was a strong believer in God at one time. Believed without questioning it. Funny thing, though, when I did start to honestly question it. I wanted to believe but I also wanted to make sure I wasn't being deceived, especially by my own wishful thinking. When I searched myself, searched for why I believed, I concluded that the only reason I believed is because I wanted to live forever in an eternal paradise. This struck me as incredibly selfish, especially with the lack of any evidence to support it, because I was more concerned with my own personal fate than that of anyone else's. What I really want to be concerned with now is the fate of our descendants, the fate of all Humanity. How can I possibly be expected to trust that fate to a god that only humans claim to exist?

I have since concluded that a belief in an afterlife is merely a tool with which to distract the masses. After all, what better way to distract the masses than to have them be concerned with a fate that no one can prove really exists? Can you convince me that there is a fate I should be more concerned with other than Humanity's?

- Joe

Whispers

I am not sure if you have ever had your heart broken by a loved one. Maybe when you were young, someone you loved left you for another or finished with you.....you know what I mean...I cannot speak for you, but when similar things have happened to me, I have felt intense mental pain AND physical pain in my chest. I have hurt so much, it felt as if my chest would explode. Tell me then, what are your thoughts on how mental stress transmits directly to pain in a specific area of the body, and why when this sort of thing happens to me, is it always the same place it goes to? Also, when I have experience deep moments of love, closeness and joy, I have felt my heart close to bursting again...Do you feel the things I have felt? Where do you feel them?

The extraordinary claim thing is true I agree. But where do you draw the line at what is extraordinary and what is not? How much DO YOU ACCEPT ON TRUST OR FAITH? C'mon, how much...

thebeave

So do this mean that you believe in fairies and unicorns too? Or that there is a clan of 3 headed monkeys in a spaceship orbiting the planet Neptune? Why don't you believe those things? Do you need direct evidence to believe those things, and if so, why not for God also? Please explain your reasoning Whispers.

Whispers

QUOTE---Giving you the benefit of the doubt, I'll trust you to say that you really believe what you say, but you didn't answer the question. If you can't provide me with convincing evidence that your claims are true, why should I take you seriously?

You know that I or anyone else, will NEVER prove it to you. How could I possibly? Belief in God, is exactly that....belief in God? If you had proof, it would not be belief would it? I don’t need to believe that fire burns and neither do you. We know.....

QUOTE---I was a strong believer in God at one time. Believed without questioning it. Funny thing, though, when I did start to honestly question it. I wanted to believe but I also wanted to make sure I wasn't being deceived, especially by my own wishful thinking. When I searched myself, searched for why I believed, I concluded that the only reason I believed is because I wanted to live forever in an eternal paradise. This struck me as incredibly selfish, especially with the lack of any evidence to support it, because I was more concerned with my own personal fate than that of anyone else's.

It is very difficult to analyse yourself and reach a new understanding. It can be done, but I find it to be very hard to discern truth from mental wonderings. One day I hate this person, the next day I don’t. One day I decide never to speak to X again, five years later I have married X. Our mental thoughts and so forth could be just the lies we tell ourselves based on circumstance at the time and I am aware that this could and does also apply to me.

QUOTE---What I really want to be concerned with now is the fate of our descendants, the fate of all Humanity. How can I possibly be expected to trust that fate to a god that only humans claim to exist?

Your compassion is obvious and I admire it...... What is the point in saving humanity? This will seem like a ridiculous question and I expect to be flamed....But c'mon, why worry about what the future holds for others? Are you worried for yourself? I can tell you what will happen based on an Atheistic world view. People will be born and they will die and there bodies will rot and that is all there is too it. Why worry for future people that are nothing more than the end result of chemical reactions? They are just chemicals that have increased in complexity (strange) and then become self aware....well, so what? Whats the urge to protect and shelter them all about? Why are you worried?

QUOTE---I have since concluded that a belief in an afterlife is merely a tool with which to distract the masses. After all, what better way to distract the masses than to have them be concerned with a fate that no one can prove really exists? Can you convince me that there is a fate I should be more concerned with other than Humanity's?

No I cannot nor will I try to. Surely believing that you will be punished for your wrongs is a far better tool for society then believing that noone has any worth, other than what I attribute to them. If I attribute no worth to you, then I can hurt you nd feel no blame, guilt or remorse....Oh, and what exactly are the masses being distraced from?