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Old 02-03-2002, 09:06 PM   #11
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Originally posted by sullster:
<strong>My experience has been that the religious are clutching ever more tightly to their free will doctrine. The rise of the sciences of behavioral genetics and evolutionary psychology is frightening the dung out of them.

Free will has always been an escape hatch for the religious, through which they can escape many quandaries about good and evil. They also can use it as a weapon to stigmatize non-believers and to cull believers.

Behavioral genetics is undermining free will, as it is defined by the religious, and revealing that many actions are biologically based. Even religion belief itself seems to have given an evolutionary selective advantage.

The Christian god is being revealed to be a nihilistic tyrant who uses free will to terrorize the masses who are frightened of making the "wrong" choice. Fortunately, science is slowly clearing the air of such superstitious ignorance.</strong>
You make some great points here sullster. Over two thousand years of evil done in the name of religion and the old free will defense is still perceived as valid by the faithful. Pitiful how long they can hold on to such weak constructs like “God” and “religion”. I keep hoping that humanity will turn the corner esp. in the US, the most powerful home of oppressive right wing radical religions. For me they are just behind the Muslims right now as a clear and present danger to the survival of us all. I fear a future where more and more we are faced with fanatical branches of all three Abrahamic religions slugging it out, and using means that end up destroying themselves and secular humanity in the process.
Although I first came here to focus on my political and economic work, religion was right there too. Its sites like this that give me hope for the future, I think we are getting good exposure for the cause of humanity, secular reason and metaphysical naturalism, as well as a little economic and political coverage. If we can survive the onslaught from the dangerous and destructive religious zealots, we may be able to survive the death throws of religion as a power over the well being of humanity. It is fading in Europe, hopefully it will fade here as the absurdity of it all finally sinks in to more and more of the people here.

David
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Old 02-03-2002, 09:08 PM   #12
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<strong>All too often apologists implement the free will defense in defense of the actions or lack of action of there alleged all powerful and loving god. They love it because it fits in well with how they reason (or don't reason). God loves us so much that he gave us free will so that we will be able to choose to love him in return and worship/follow him. The Christian reasons that it wouldn't be very good somehow if their god forced us to love and worship/follow him. This line of reasoning also fits in well with their low opinion of humanity. To them we're all such horrible sinners you would think that we were all on the verge of molesting children or killing convenience store workers for the money in their tills.

They never seem to think about the fact that many if not most people get through the day without even considering doing such things. As another writer (name?) put it, I could have killed my family any number of times and boiled their brains up into a nice brothy soup but somehow the whole idea disturbs me at least million times more than it appeals to me (which it doesn't). So if their god is real and created me with the sense of right and wrong that prevents me from doing such things, (which apparently hasn't violated by free will) why couldn't he make everybody with at least the same sense of right and wrong as me?

I have yet to encounter even an attempt by theists to address this challenge to their cherished free will defense.

I also find it amusing how Christians often argue that their god's ways are much above human ways yet the same time their god has some vain need to have us humans love and worship him.</strong>
You raise some interesting questions here dwp, but like you say, there will be no answer from our theist friends here. They favor the more obtuse stuff that is easly quibbled over, not the more direct questions that have a point they tend to find themselves impaled on when they try to jump on it.

David
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