Freethought & Rationalism Archive

David M. Payne · 02-02-2002, 11:53 AM

I have read the �Free Will Defense �� thread by the duck, hoping to get two things out of it.
(1)A definitive definition of the argument of �free will�, which was not forthcoming in that thread. The closest thing I can find is the old God gave us free will so we could chose good or evil etc. I see the theist crowd use this argument as a defense for the travesties done in the name of religion and God throughout history. So, is there a definition that is considered authoritative? And:
(2) Where in the world did this argument come from in the first place? I have not been able to find it in my searchable bible CD, which has several editions of the bible to look in. Nor have I found anyone here in two years who can show where it came from. The best I have seen are a couple of weak biblical passages that were inferred to be the fountainhead for this argument. So are any of the theists we have here able to pull this �Free Will Argument� out of the bible and show us where it came from? I know Nomad and Metacrock have been unable to step up to the plate and swat this seemingly easy slow ball out of the park. RW, Helen, anyone else care to give it a shot? It looks like a made up justification to excuse the abominable behavior done throughout history in the name of God and Religion to me, am I wrong?
It seems to me that if there is no authoritative definition of this doctrine, and no passage of the bible that it came �directly� out of, then it�s made up bunk and should be debunked every time the theist�s try to use it to �explain away� the murderous behavior of their fellow travelers in the religion biz.

-DM- · 02-02-2002, 01:44 PM

Biblical evidence of so-called free-will (at least according to some fundamentalist apologists) is found in the story of The Fall. Adam & Eve allegedly exercised their free-will to disobey "God" and eat of The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

One of the things that I find interesting about this is that the prohibition with regard to eating of the fruit of The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was given to Adam. There is no biblical record of it having been given to Eve, yet it is Eve who was allegedly first tempted by the Serpent.

Another interesting aspect of this is that prior to eating of The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil neither Adam nor Eve would have had knowledge that it was wrong to do so.

--Don--

HelenM · 02-02-2002, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David Payne:
Helen, anyone else care to give it a shot?

Actually I don't believe in free-will.

Well, maybe I do, but not in the sense of it getting God off the hook. He clearly is responsible for all kinds of things if He is God and I respect the theists more who are honest about it than those who try to weasel out of it with the 'free will defense'.

I hope I am on the right topic here because I'm not sure where your source material is - I'm guessing what you are talking about...

love
Helen

David M. Payne · 02-02-2002, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Don Morgan:
Biblical evidence of so-called free-will (at least according to some fundamentalist apologists) is found in the story of The Fall. Adam & Eve allegedly exercised their free-will to disobey "God" and eat of The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

One of the things that I find interesting about this is that the prohibition with regard to eating of the fruit of The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was given to Adam. There is no biblical record of it having been given to Eve, yet it is Eve who was allegedly first tempted by the Serpent.

Another interesting aspect of this is that prior to eating of The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil neither Adam nor Eve would have had knowledge that it was wrong to do so.

--Don--

Thanks Don, That�s an interesting take on the question. I had a couple of other posts given on this question when I asked it last year, but this wasn�t one of them. Your last point here is illuminating, kind of like passing a law against something, not telling anyone about it and then arresting people for unknowingly violating it. Pretty impressive behavior from an omnipotent being like God, isn�t it?
For sure we will not find a definitive passage that explicitly states the concept of the free will argument. I am sure that the best we will see is examples like the one you gave, an implied source derived from interpretations of the bible, Qur�an etc. put forward by theists who think this is the source of the argument, but no passage that definitively says this is where the free will argument came from. Well it is like anything else in these books, you just have to believe what they (Theists) tell you. I�ll pass on that.

David M. Payne · 02-02-2002, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by HelenSL:


Actually I don't believe in free-will.

Well, maybe I do, but not in the sense of it getting God off the hook. He clearly is responsible for all kinds of things if He is God and I respect the theists more who are honest about it than those who try to weasel out of it with the 'free will defense'.

I hope I am on the right topic here because I'm not sure where your source material is - I'm guessing what you are talking about...

love
Helen

Hi Helen, how are you doing?
I believe we have free will based on our evolution as a species, not because some biblical (re mythical) God gave it to us so we could screw up and go against his will. Bad behavior is based on factors like nature and nurture, not on a devil in your nose. (my you can learn all kinds of interesting things here.)
As for source material, it�s the bible and there is no definitive source for the argument that I have seen. Funny how one of the big crutches that theists use to explain away the horror done in the name of religion is so nebulous to pin down.

David

HelenM · 02-02-2002, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David Payne:
Hi Helen, how are you doing?

Pretty well, David - thanks for asking!

It's been some months since I read/responded to a post by you, as I recall.

I believe we have free will based on our evolution as a species, not because some biblical (re mythical) God gave it to us so we could screw up and go against his will. Bad behavior is based on factors like nature and nurture, not on a devil in your nose. (my you can learn all kinds of interesting things here.)
As for source material, it’s the bible and there is no definitive source for the argument that I have seen. Funny how one of the big crutches that theists use to explain away the horror done in the name of religion is so nebulous to pin down.

What I find is that experientially it works best to assume we have free will.

But the most consistent, Biblical, doctrine affirms that people are either slaves to sin or slaves to Christ (Romans 6).

I have found that Christians who argue that people have free-will tend not to know the Bible very well. They claim that people are free to choose God and then cannot explain this verse (for example):

The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God -- 2 Cor 4:4

But I generally only use verses and doctrine to argue against what people say

I am reading "Honest to Jesus" by Robert Funk and in it he says "The mark of a Christian should be the way they act, not what they believe". That more and more reflects the way I am thinking, lately. The way people act matters to me more than what they believe. I'm not saying those two things aren't connected, often. I'm simply saying what matters most to me.

Nice to see you again, David!

love
Helen

David M. Payne · 02-02-2002, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by HelenSL: �I am reading "Honest to Jesus" by Robert Funk and in it he says "The mark of a Christian should be the way they act, not what they believe". That more and more reflects the way I am thinking, lately. The way people act matters to me more than what they believe. I'm not saying those two things aren't connected, often. I'm simply saying what matters most to me.

Nice to see you again, David!

love
Helen
[QB][/QB]

That is the crux of the matter isn�t it Helen? It�s not what you say you believe in, it�s how you act that defines what kind of person you are and what kind of impact you have on this planet. Not that words aren�t important, but deeds are more important in the end. When you have such nebulous sources as the bible, Qur�an etc that can be taken any way those who �follow the words� want to take them, then chaos has and will surely follow in their wake. 9-11 is just one example in a long line of examples of where religion can sidetrack humanity as we travel our path to wherever we are going. Humanity will be much better off when we finally shake off the oppressive yolk of religion and find our true path.
Mean while is there a definitive passage in the bible, Qur�an etc that says �God gave us free will�, for what ever reason he/she/it chose to do so? I doubt it, I think it was a construct put forward by priests, Mullahs etc to cover up the fact that a lot of the problems in this world are caused by those who use religion to murder and destroy those they despise, whatever the real reason for that activity. As long as this �God� keeps shirking its responsibility to reign in these religious thugs, we will be �blessed� with this behavior, right up to the time they finally get the means to destroy us all in the name of saving us for God, or sending us to hell for our sins.

Good to see you again Helen, take care and keep that mind open, we may save you yet from your religious bondage.

HelenM · 02-03-2002, 01:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David Payne:
When you have such nebulous sources as the bible, Qur”an etc that can be taken any way those who “follow the words” want to take them

I have observed that people do seem able to take the words of such sources in varying ways, some of which seem very wrong, to me.

It undermines the whole point of having a sacred text if you can make it say anything you want to.

At that point one has the power to turn one's 'objective external standard' into an instrument of oppressive evil, through the deception that while claiming it to be objective, one is using it to provide Divine sanction for one's own agenda.

I think that's a very evil thing, when that happens.

But I don't think everyone takes advantage of the belief of many in a Sacred authoritative text, that way.

It does hand over a lot of power to a 'respected teacher', in any case, when that teacher has the evident 'support' of a Sacred text.

Humanity will be much better off when we finally shake off the oppressive yoke of religion and find our true path.

I don't think people who are furious at religion are going to save the world, though. They are too angry.

Not that all anger is bad, but simply removing one thing just leaves a hole that other bad things can come into. Like in Animal Farm. In the end things were the same or worse, as new evil personalities replaced the old oppressors. Different appearance, same evil.

Here's the Biblical way of saying that that can even happen to one person

Matt 11:43 "When an evil spirit comes out of a man, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. 44 Then it says, `I will return to the house I left.' When it arrives, it finds the house unoccupied, swept clean and put in order. 45 Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that man is worse than the first.

Something more has to happen than simply 'getting rid of evil'. Something good has to replace the evil.

Mean while is there a definitive passage in the bible, Qur”an etc that says “God gave us free will”, for what ever reason he/she/it chose to do so? I doubt it

Like I said, I think the weight of Biblical teaching is against that.

I think it was a construct put forward by priests, Mullahs etc to cover up the fact that a lot of the problems in this world are caused by those who use religion to murder and destroy those they despise, whatever the real reason for that activity. As long as this “God” keeps shirking its responsibility to reign in these religious thugs, we will be ‘blessed’ with this behavior, right up to the time they finally get the means to destroy us all in the name of saving us for God, or sending us to hell for our sins.

It sure seems like some religious fundamentalists will stop at nothing - thinking of 9-11

Good to see you again Helen

You too!

take care and keep that mind open, we may save you yet from your religious bondage.

Ah, you truly have the heart of God who saved his people from the Egyptian oppression!

(Just teasin' ya, David

)

love
Helen

sullster · 02-03-2002, 05:36 AM

My experience has been that the religious are clutching ever more tightly to their free will doctrine. The rise of the sciences of behavioural genetics and evolutionary psychology is frightening the dung out of them.

Free will has always been an escape hatch for the religious, through which they can escape many quandries about good and evil. They also can use it as a weapon to stigmatise non-believers and to cull believers.

Behavioural genetics is undermining free will, as it is defined by the religious, and revealing that many actions are biologically based. Even religion belief itself seems to have given an evolutionary selective advantage.

The christian god is being revealed to be a nihilistic tyrant who uses free will to terrorize the masses who are frightened of making the "wrong" choice. Fortunately, science is slowly clearing the air of such superstitious ignorance.

dwp666 · 02-03-2002, 12:41 PM

All too often apologists implement the free will defense in defense of the actions or lack of action of there alleged all powerful and loving god. They love it because it fits in well with how they reason (or don't reason). God loves us so much that he gave us free will so that we will be able to choose to love him in return and worship/follow him. The Christian reasons that it wouldn't be very good somehow if their god forced us to love and worship/follow him. This line of reasoning also fits in well with their low opinion of humanity. To them we're all such horrible sinners you would think that we were all on the verge of molesting children or killing convenience store workers for the money in their tills.

They never seem to think about the fact that many if not most people get through the day without even considering doing such things. As another writer (name?) put it, I could have killed my family any number of times and boiled their brains up into a nice brothy soup but somehow the whole idea disturbs me at least million times more than it appeals to me (which it doesn't). So if their god is real and created me with the sense of right and wrong that prevents me from doing such things, (which apparently hasn't violated by free will) why couldn't he make everybody with at least the same sense of right and wrong as me?

I have yet to encounter even an attempt by theists to address this challenge to their cherished free will defense.

I also find it amusing how Christians often argue that their god's ways are much above human ways yet the same time their god has some vain need to have us humans love and worship him.

02-02-2002, 11:53 AM	#1
David M. Payne Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: The land of chain smoking, bible thumping, holy ro Posts: 1,248	The "free will" quandary revisited I have read the �Free Will Defense �� thread by the duck, hoping to get two things out of it. (1)A definitive definition of the argument of �free will�, which was not forthcoming in that thread. The closest thing I can find is the old God gave us free will so we could chose good or evil etc. I see the theist crowd use this argument as a defense for the travesties done in the name of religion and God throughout history. So, is there a definition that is considered authoritative? And: (2) Where in the world did this argument come from in the first place? I have not been able to find it in my searchable bible CD, which has several editions of the bible to look in. Nor have I found anyone here in two years who can show where it came from. The best I have seen are a couple of weak biblical passages that were inferred to be the fountainhead for this argument. So are any of the theists we have here able to pull this �Free Will Argument� out of the bible and show us where it came from? I know Nomad and Metacrock have been unable to step up to the plate and swat this seemingly easy slow ball out of the park. RW, Helen, anyone else care to give it a shot? It looks like a made up justification to excuse the abominable behavior done throughout history in the name of God and Religion to me, am I wrong? It seems to me that if there is no authoritative definition of this doctrine, and no passage of the bible that it came �directly� out of, then it�s made up bunk and should be debunked every time the theist�s try to use it to �explain away� the murderous behavior of their fellow travelers in the religion biz.

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02-02-2002, 01:44 PM	#2
-DM- Honorary Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: West Coast Posts: 5,714	Biblical evidence of so-called free-will (at least according to some fundamentalist apologists) is found in the story of The Fall. Adam & Eve allegedly exercised their free-will to disobey "God" and eat of The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. One of the things that I find interesting about this is that the prohibition with regard to eating of the fruit of The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was given to Adam. There is no biblical record of it having been given to Eve, yet it is Eve who was allegedly first tempted by the Serpent. Another interesting aspect of this is that prior to eating of The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil neither Adam nor Eve would have had knowledge that it was wrong to do so. --Don--

02-03-2002, 05:36 AM	#9
sullster Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: North of Boston Posts: 1,392	My experience has been that the religious are clutching ever more tightly to their free will doctrine. The rise of the sciences of behavioural genetics and evolutionary psychology is frightening the dung out of them. Free will has always been an escape hatch for the religious, through which they can escape many quandries about good and evil. They also can use it as a weapon to stigmatise non-believers and to cull believers. Behavioural genetics is undermining free will, as it is defined by the religious, and revealing that many actions are biologically based. Even religion belief itself seems to have given an evolutionary selective advantage. The christian god is being revealed to be a nihilistic tyrant who uses free will to terrorize the masses who are frightened of making the "wrong" choice. Fortunately, science is slowly clearing the air of such superstitious ignorance.

02-03-2002, 12:41 PM	#10
dwp666 Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: North Bay, Ontario, Canada Posts: 59	All too often apologists implement the free will defense in defense of the actions or lack of action of there alleged all powerful and loving god. They love it because it fits in well with how they reason (or don't reason). God loves us so much that he gave us free will so that we will be able to choose to love him in return and worship/follow him. The Christian reasons that it wouldn't be very good somehow if their god forced us to love and worship/follow him. This line of reasoning also fits in well with their low opinion of humanity. To them we're all such horrible sinners you would think that we were all on the verge of molesting children or killing convenience store workers for the money in their tills. They never seem to think about the fact that many if not most people get through the day without even considering doing such things. As another writer (name?) put it, I could have killed my family any number of times and boiled their brains up into a nice brothy soup but somehow the whole idea disturbs me at least million times more than it appeals to me (which it doesn't). So if their god is real and created me with the sense of right and wrong that prevents me from doing such things, (which apparently hasn't violated by free will) why couldn't he make everybody with at least the same sense of right and wrong as me? I have yet to encounter even an attempt by theists to address this challenge to their cherished free will defense. I also find it amusing how Christians often argue that their god's ways are much above human ways yet the same time their god has some vain need to have us humans love and worship him.

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