Freethought & Rationalism Archive

WinAce · 02-13-2003, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Deuteronomy 7:1-2

1 When the LORD your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations-the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than you- 2 and when the LORD your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy.

In all these cases, BibleGateway says, when referring to the 'destroy' command:

The Hebrew term refers to the irrevocable giving over of things or persons to the LORD , often by totally destroying them.

Then we have this bizarre set of verses:

Quote:

Numbers 31:28-41

From the soldiers who fought in the battle, set apart as tribute for the LORD one out of every five hundred, whether persons, cattle, donkeys, sheep or goats. 29 Take this tribute from their half share and give it to Eleazar the priest as the LORD's part. 30 From the Israelites' half, select one out of every fifty, whether persons, cattle, donkeys, sheep, goats or other animals. Give them to the Levites, who are responsible for the care of the LORD's tabernacle." 31 So Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the LORD commanded Moses.
32 The plunder remaining from the spoils that the soldiers took was 675,000 sheep, 33 72,000 cattle, 34 61,000 donkeys 35 and 32,000 women who had never slept with a man.
36 The half share of those who fought in the battle was:

337,500 sheep, 37 of which the tribute for the LORD was 675;
38 36,000 cattle, of which the tribute for the LORD was 72;
39 30,500 donkeys, of which the tribute for the LORD was 61;
40 16,000 people, of which the tribute for the LORD was 32.

41 Moses gave the tribute to Eleazar the priest as the LORD's part, as the LORD commanded Moses.

No further mention appears to be made of the fate of the '32 tributed for the Lord'.

Then there's the bizarre story of the guy promising to sacrifice anything to win a battle, then burning his daughter when *she* comes out as he promised, with no negative input whatsoever from Yahweh.

So, my question is, WTF? Did the ancient Hebrews habitually sacrifice people, and when though the ruling priests tried to curb it, the Bible preserves 'vestigial' traces of the habit?

Old Man · 02-13-2003, 05:54 PM

No. The story of Abraham and Isaac indicates that although God was worthy of human sacrifice, even the first born of every household, he was not pleased with such sacfices and redeemed the firstborn with animal sacrifices.

The giving over to destruction was mainly reserved for the inveterate enemies of the Israelites, such as the likes of the Midianites who had led the Israelites into fornication, and the Amalekites, who mudered the Israelites in the wilderness, and anyone else who would not surrender to them - who chose war rather than peace.

Jeremy Pallant · 02-13-2003, 07:20 PM

The Old Man's denial notwithstanding, WinAce, there is evidence of human sacrifice in the Bible. Leaving aside the obvious example of Jesus' sacrifice, Farrell Till wrote A Legacy of Human Sacrifice which should answer your query.

Frankly, the story of Jephthah and his daughter nicely demonstrates that the Biblical Jaweh approved of human sacrifice, at least under some circumstances.

GarColga · 02-13-2003, 08:05 PM

What about Leviticus 27:28-29?

"No devoted thing, that a man shall devote unto the LORD of all that he hath, both of man and beast ... shall be sold or redeemed: every devoted thing is most holy unto the LORD. None devoted, which shall be devoted of men, shall be redeemed; but shall surely be put to death

Old Man · 02-14-2003, 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jeremy Pallant
Frankly, the story of Jephthah and his daughter nicely demonstrates that the Biblical Jaweh approved of human sacrifice, at least under some circumstances.

The distinctions between "Human sacrifice" and Lev 27;28-9 are that:
- Nowhere is God seen to command that a man devote any human that he owns to God
- The issue is with public vows made to God being broken by humans. Gods' name and his law would be dishonoured if people could make vows to God and then break them, in respect of their own possessions. Thus Jephthah was required to give up his daughter, even though he did not want to, because of the rule of law operating on the rash vow that he had made. But that is not to say that God ever commanded Jephthah to make the vow.

Also, the intentional sacrifice of children was always equated with heathenism. eg:

2Ki 16:3 But he walked in the way of the kings of Israel, yea, and made his son to pass through the fire, according to the abominations of the heathen, whom the LORD cast out from before the children of Israel.

GarColga · 02-14-2003, 05:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Old Man
[B]The distinctions between "Human sacrifice" and Lev 27;28-9 are that:
- Nowhere is God seen to command that a man devote any human that he owns to God

?

Psycho Economist · 02-14-2003, 05:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by GarColga
?

Game off!

I think he means to infer that according to Leviticus, one cannot sacrifice slaves or family members, but could prisoners of war that had not been inducted into familiar service.

Game on!

Amen-Moses · 02-14-2003, 05:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Old Man
2Ki 16:3 But he walked in the way of the kings of Israel, yea, and made his son to pass through the fire, according to the abominations of the heathen, whom the LORD cast out from before the children of Israel.

Fire walking is still a right of passage into manhood in some parts of what used to be Persia.

Amen-Moses

philechat · 02-14-2003, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Fire walking is still a right of passage into manhood in some parts of what used to be Persia.

It also exists in many polynesian religious rites. Fire-walking is actually less harmful than it seems, and most do not lead to major injuries or death.

I think some cultures in the Phillipines and the Balinese in Indonesia probably performed them, as did Taiwanese "Dang-gi" (similar to shamans). The rocks upon which the fire is burning is not as hot as many would have surmised, and one can probably walk through them barefeet as long as one keeps his feet steadily on the unburnt sections of the rocks.

L'ame Errant · 02-18-2003, 04:12 PM

I asked my dad (he knows his Bible) and apparently Jephta could have "broken" his promise to God by going to the high priest.
He could have brought an animal instead and not sacrificed his daughter, but he was too proud to go to the high preist.
Not to say there aren't other instances when human sacrifice it was practiced, I'm sure it was, but sometimes there are other angles/stories behind it.
~Maxine~

And P.S. this is my first post, so hello everyone! I've been lurking since around November and I'm so glad I finally registered!

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02-13-2003, 05:54 PM	#2
Old Man Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 188	No. The story of Abraham and Isaac indicates that although God was worthy of human sacrifice, even the first born of every household, he was not pleased with such sacfices and redeemed the firstborn with animal sacrifices. The giving over to destruction was mainly reserved for the inveterate enemies of the Israelites, such as the likes of the Midianites who had led the Israelites into fornication, and the Amalekites, who mudered the Israelites in the wilderness, and anyone else who would not surrender to them - who chose war rather than peace.

02-13-2003, 07:20 PM	#3
Jeremy Pallant Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Tucson, Arizona, USA Posts: 1,242	The Old Man's denial notwithstanding, WinAce, there is evidence of human sacrifice in the Bible. Leaving aside the obvious example of Jesus' sacrifice, Farrell Till wrote A Legacy of Human Sacrifice which should answer your query. Frankly, the story of Jephthah and his daughter nicely demonstrates that the Biblical Jaweh approved of human sacrifice, at least under some circumstances.

02-13-2003, 08:05 PM	#4
GarColga Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Boise, Idaho, USA Posts: 57	What about Leviticus 27:28-29? "No devoted thing, that a man shall devote unto the LORD of all that he hath, both of man and beast ... shall be sold or redeemed: every devoted thing is most holy unto the LORD. None devoted, which shall be devoted of men, shall be redeemed; but shall surely be put to death

02-18-2003, 04:12 PM	#10
L'ame Errant Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Beletgeuse 5 Posts: 8	I asked my dad (he knows his Bible) and apparently Jephta could have "broken" his promise to God by going to the high priest. He could have brought an animal instead and not sacrificed his daughter, but he was too proud to go to the high preist. Not to say there aren't other instances when human sacrifice it was practiced, I'm sure it was, but sometimes there are other angles/stories behind it. ~Maxine~ And P.S. this is my first post, so hello everyone! I've been lurking since around November and I'm so glad I finally registered!

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