Mageth

Jesus is the word of God in the flesh, and has been with God the Father in Heaven for eternity.

I'll have to add this to the list of things you said Jesus was (or was not) on another recent thread. IIRC, you said, at various times on the thread:

- Jesus is God
- Jesus is the Son of God

Here's the thread. And here's the quotes:

"Jesus = God. Jesus is just God in human form."
"By dying by our hands, the perfect Son of God - he carried all the worlds sins and transgressions with Him on the cross. Jesus redeemed us with God, because only He could do it."

So was Jesus God, the Son of God, or the Word of God in the flesh?

(I thought on that thread that in one place you said Jesus is not God, but looking at it again I see it was just poor sentence structure on your part or poor reading on my part.)

Mageth

He lost his mortal life...

More like "temporarily misplaced" it for less than 40 hours...

Biff the unclean

He lost his mortal life,
Which leads to a series of questions
1) So what--he wasn't mortal?
2) If he lost his mortal life what is he doing staggering around before the weekend was over?
3) What's with all the holes? He could die and come back to life but he couldn't do a little first aid?

and suffered the most excrutiating torture in human history
Not if it was what the Gospels write about. I've seen Marines suffer much worst than that and get up fighting.

yes more so than anyone else, not just because of the physical wounds, but the emotional and mental as well - so much stress that he sweat blood before the execution
That sweating blood is symptom of hysteria. For it to happen it would require that Jesus be a pathological coward

Suppose your worst enemy was on his death bed. Would you endure crucifiction to save him from death, even if you'd come back to life with nothing you didn't already have before death?
I don't see anybody in the world not dying. Friends or foe of Jesus. I see Jesus again and again saying that his enemies were condemned to the pit of Hell where there was gnashing of teeth, where their bodies would burn but not be consumed. Where the worm dies not. FOREVER!!!!

Why are you changing what the bible says? Why are you making up this stuff about Jesus?

Mageth

He lost his mortal life, and suffered the most excrutiating torture in human history ( yes more so than anyone else, not just because of the physical wounds, but the emotional and mental as well - so much stress that he sweat blood before the execution)

I don't understand how anyone could worship a God that requires, as payment for anything, "the most excrutiating torture in human history."

Taffer

I have to admit that my knowledge of the bible can only be described as abysmal, so could you please elaborate on your point or give me an idea of where I can find out more?

Do you mean he was in heaven even during his existence on earth, or just that he had heaven guaranteed in any case?

Regardless, what is a measly corporeal existence compared to the pleasures of god? If I knew that I'm getting into heaven no matter what (as Jesus surely did), and if I also knew that sacrificing myself through crucifixion would do any good, then I'd do it in a heartbeat. Yes, the pain and suffering would be tremendous. But they would not be infinite (as is only the case with hell), and since heaven is infinite pleasure, the pain would be hardly worth mentioning. You'd pretty much have forgotten it after an aeon or two in god's presence.

I made this point in a thread of my own earlier. Heaven and hell as the two absolutes are (presuming they exist) the only things that matter in after/life. Your earthly existence is infinitely short and bland compared to these two since H&H don't only span all of eternal time, they also represent ultimate pleasure or suffering. The only thing that counts in your current life is whether you prove worthy to be let into heaven or not.

Lucky I don't believe in this stuff, or I'd be quite the religious fanatic.

Now, if Jesus had gone to hell as a result of his sacrifice, then I'd be impressed.

Magus55

http://www.carm.org/doctrine/Jesusdieforsins.htm


Basically, God created the law and is required by His divine nature to punish law breakers. However, with all of humanity being sinful, and not obeying God - we can't fulfill the law on our own. Only God could fulfill it for us. So God came to Earth in human form and fulfilled the law perfectly - therefore, His death is sufficient to take the place of our sins - because He did what no one else can do - completely fulfill the law and be perfect.

Mageth

In other words, as Koy says, "God sacrificed himself to himself to save us from himself."

Biff the unclean

Because the Jews followed the Old Convenant, and God put in place another one.
Without bothering to let the Jews know?
So was Original Sin ™ retroactive or did it only apply to people born after 33CE?
The Old Covenant would still be in place if everyone could follow God's laws without breaking them
No, not at all. The Old Covenant includes the ability to atone for your sins yourself. Have you never even met a Jew?
but God knew we would fail, and ignore His laws, so He came to Earth in the flesh, fulfilled all the laws Himself, died to pay the worlds debt,
But there was no unplayable debt. The Jews never heard of such a thing.
Nobody on the planet except the Jews had even heard these laws. Why are you portraying God as being psychotic?
and was ressurected to be brought back to the right hand of God
So God is a Middle Eastern Potentate now is he? Has he got a turban and dancing girls?
completeing His life and purpose on Earth - and officially establishing the New Covenant.
Which has nothing to do with Judaism.

Jimmy Higgins

Just to keep things back on-topic, the issue here isn't whether or not the Jesus made a sacrifice. The issue I wanted to raise was that god asking for a human sacrifice seemed a bit ancient and outdated, even by 30 AD. No self-respecting religions makes animal sacrifices anymore, forget about human sacrifices! So I ask, why was a human sacrifice asked for if such a thing had been abandoned so long ago? And why is any credence given to the sacrifice today when sacrifices are no longer presented?

Magus55

Jesus is all of the above.

Jesus is God:


Jhn 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

Jhn 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father


Jhn 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.


Jesus is the Word:


Jhn 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


And Jesus is the son of God:

He is called the Son of God, not because He is physically God's offspring - but because humans are God's children, and below God. By entering the flesh - Jesus became Human, while remaining God - therefore he lowered himself from God the Father and became His "Son". God only became human once, hence the "Only begotten Son of God" - Jesus is the only human form of God.


Jhn 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him].

Mat 27:43 He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.