Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Jimmy Higgins · 02-22-2002, 08:40 AM

I'm probably not the first person to think of this, but what the heck.

Is it possible that we will never find the cause of the big bang because there indeed was no cause. Rather the universe today is the cause of the effect, i.e. the big bang.

Kind of a backwards look at the origin.

liquid · 02-22-2002, 11:11 AM

This isn't my field, but I have heard of self-referential universes. The idea is that the initial near-singularity, because of a quantum 'fuzz', actually precedes itself and causes itself.

No idea how credible that is.

[ February 22, 2002: Message edited by: liquid ]</p>

Jamie_L · 02-22-2002, 12:14 PM

Likewise, aren't there theories where the universe expands to a certain point, then contracts back to a singularity, then expodes again in another big bang, and so on forever? Thus, there is no cause. The universe always was and always will be.

It just is.

Jamie

Francois Tremblay · 02-22-2002, 12:50 PM

Because of infinite regress, something has to be causeless. All that we have evidence for so far is the universe. So there is no need to posit God, or another mechanism, unless we have a sound reason to do so...

tronvillain · 02-22-2002, 01:10 PM

Is there necessarily something wrong with an infinite regress? I'm not sure that there is.

Francois Tremblay · 02-22-2002, 02:53 PM

Sure there is - it cannot exist. Actual infinities cannot exist. See Zeno's Paradox for an example (or see the thread in Philosophy board about infinity - lots on that already (^_^) ).

[ February 22, 2002: Message edited by: Franc28 ]</p>

Brad Messenger · 02-22-2002, 06:23 PM

Why can't the Big Bang be the timeless, non-personal cause of the universe?

It did not occur in time, since time came into being with it. If we go by Bill Craig's line of thought, a timeless, eternal cause of the universe does not require a cause itself. Thus, why look for one?

tronvillain · 02-22-2002, 06:52 PM

Went and read the infinity thread, still don't see any problem with an infinite regress.

Francois Tremblay · 02-22-2002, 07:33 PM

Eh, not my fault. You don't know about Zeno's Paradox either ? It wouldn't hurt you to read about it.

The basic idea is that if time was infinite in the mathematical sense, or if an infinite number of events exist (infinite regress), then it is impossible to arrive to our current time, by definition (remember that the definition of infinity is a state where it is impossible to add no more numbers). Therefore it cannot be that we exist right now, if infinite regress was possible.

tronvillain · 02-22-2002, 07:46 PM

That is only true if there is something special about the present. If "now" is not uniquely privileged, then there does not appear to be anything illogical about an infinite regress.

02-22-2002, 08:40 AM	#1
Jimmy Higgins Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Proud Citizen of Freedonia Posts: 42,473	The universe and its "cause"? I'm probably not the first person to think of this, but what the heck. Is it possible that we will never find the cause of the big bang because there indeed was no cause. Rather the universe today is the cause of the effect, i.e. the big bang. Kind of a backwards look at the origin.

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02-22-2002, 11:11 AM	#2
liquid Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: UK Posts: 1,440	This isn't my field, but I have heard of self-referential universes. The idea is that the initial near-singularity, because of a quantum 'fuzz', actually precedes itself and causes itself. No idea how credible that is. [ February 22, 2002: Message edited by: liquid ]</p>

02-22-2002, 12:14 PM	#3
Jamie_L Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: U.S. Posts: 2,565	Likewise, aren't there theories where the universe expands to a certain point, then contracts back to a singularity, then expodes again in another big bang, and so on forever? Thus, there is no cause. The universe always was and always will be. It just is. Jamie

02-22-2002, 12:50 PM	#4
Francois Tremblay Banned Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Montreal, QC Canada Posts: 876	Because of infinite regress, something has to be causeless. All that we have evidence for so far is the universe. So there is no need to posit God, or another mechanism, unless we have a sound reason to do so...

02-22-2002, 01:10 PM	#5
tronvillain Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 5,658	Is there necessarily something wrong with an infinite regress? I'm not sure that there is.

02-22-2002, 02:53 PM	#6
Francois Tremblay Banned Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Montreal, QC Canada Posts: 876	Sure there is - it cannot exist. Actual infinities cannot exist. See Zeno's Paradox for an example (or see the thread in Philosophy board about infinity - lots on that already (^_^) ). [ February 22, 2002: Message edited by: Franc28 ]</p>

02-22-2002, 06:23 PM	#7
Brad Messenger Regular Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: New York,NY, USA Posts: 214	Why can't the Big Bang be the timeless, non-personal cause of the universe? It did not occur in time, since time came into being with it. If we go by Bill Craig's line of thought, a timeless, eternal cause of the universe does not require a cause itself. Thus, why look for one?

02-22-2002, 06:52 PM	#8
tronvillain Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 5,658	Went and read the infinity thread, still don't see any problem with an infinite regress.

02-22-2002, 07:33 PM	#9
Francois Tremblay Banned Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Montreal, QC Canada Posts: 876	Eh, not my fault. You don't know about Zeno's Paradox either ? It wouldn't hurt you to read about it. The basic idea is that if time was infinite in the mathematical sense, or if an infinite number of events exist (infinite regress), then it is impossible to arrive to our current time, by definition (remember that the definition of infinity is a state where it is impossible to add no more numbers). Therefore it cannot be that we exist right now, if infinite regress was possible.

02-22-2002, 07:46 PM	#10
tronvillain Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 5,658	That is only true if there is something special about the present. If "now" is not uniquely privileged, then there does not appear to be anything illogical about an infinite regress.

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