Mav

So the way I'm viewing this is: 500 years ago, people held this as the truth and a real
happening, and as they gained knowledge, they saw the light.
Lets take Oden. A god, lots of followers, he had a son that cared for the human race.
Allot of history on this god as well. With knowledge, he became a myth, story, made up,
and everything you say about your god, can be said about Oden as well.

Riddle me this: Your god states that I have to worship him or I burn in hell forever. Is that
free will? What if I don't worship god or the devil? Prayer = desperate hoping which is
what this whole string is about. Robinsin: God Bless You post.


I agree with you about the statement about the more we learn the more we see just how
"in the dark" we really were........

Mav

malookiemaloo

I will answer the best I can.

The effects of our sin are totally under-estimated. We do not really appreciate how much of an offence it is too God. Evenn Christians do not fully understand this-me included.

Hell? I have no problem with Hell at all. Why? Because I know I deserve to be there. The King of Love died that I might be saved from Hell. This may not be rational argument to the non-theist but that is not God's fault.

(Sorry, I do not really like 'witnessing' on the SW as I know it is frowned upon but it's the only way I can answer the point you are making.)


malookiemaloo

MollyMac

malookiemaloo

You claim that belief in a deity is rational then come up with this:

Now give me one good reason why I shouldn't split my sides laughing at what you've said here. Where is the evidence for any of this? There isn't any - not one single jot. All this stuff about sin and the effects of it and people deserving to be in Hell and someone dying to save us from it - I know a bunch of ignorant savages wrote all this up thousands of years ago, but how can you possibly suspend your innate ability to reason so completely as to take any of it seriously for even a fraction of a second?

This is really quite disturbing.

:banghead:

Oxymoron

Plato tried that one a while back. It didn't really stand the test of time. Descartes also tried a variant of it, but then he tried lots of variants on lots of themes to try to prove Sky Daddy exists and they're all a bit of hot air, too.

Now, let's get to specifics: a perfect what exactly? It matters. I can't draw a perfect circle, even with a compass (I'd need a perfectly sharp pencil and a perfectly flat piece of paper). But I can write an equation that describes a perfect circle. See, no God, perfection, cashback!

Or, are you saying that God exemplifies perfect behaviour? Hmmm... the Bible is chock full of his fickle wrath, don't you know. Based on that, he/she/it seems less than perfect.

HelenM

There's a difference between answering questions by sharing your beliefs honestly and straightforwardly, and 'witnessing'. 'Witnessing' implies a concerted effort to 'convert' the nontheists here rather than having a back-and-forth discussion. 'Witnessing' implies "I'm right; you're wrong there's nothing to discuss so I won't stick around to see what you posted in response to my sharing of the Word of God with you". And Christians regularly do that - they post one post and never come back to respond to the posts back to them. They are the so-called 'hit-and-run' posters. The person who started this thread appears to be one even though he (?) lasted a little longer than just one post.

If you share your beliefs here, in answer to questions, then the non-theists here will strongly disagree with you and probably ask you a lot of questions about why you believe certain things. Maybe more questions than you have time to answer. But that doesn't mean they 'frown upon' your attempt to answer questions. Most nontheists here will respect that and the ones who've been here a while will know it's rare to find a Christian with the perseverance to do that.

take care
Helen

Zanthor

ok ppl, i am new here, i desperately want to be a non-believer.
now, how do i go about it?
been trying for 40+ tears. oops meant years. but God always seems lurking there in the background, dying to take control.
no matter how much i try to suppress, my knowledge of all the religions of the world seem to be saying over and over, love your enemies, dont support bombing Iraq, widespread death and destruction. give and share of the provision you have to the needy
- i dont really have any idea to go about sharing generously from my sustenance any longer.
i cant even seem to do it gracefully on a 'home' level.
my prob is this, a good friend has left her husband n 4 kids, run off to England to be with her internet lover. may not come back.
they ( the 4 kids ) are all round here continually, playing with my kids, eating me out of house and home, monopolise everything i have, eg swimming pool, comp/s, tvs vcr etc, all the creature comforts we civalised westerners worked so hard for.
and Iraqis could perhaps only dream about?
but for Gods sake, scuse the pun, these kids have pretty much lost thier mum, and near nuff thier dad, so what part do i have to play? sheez!!!

i feel resentment that i am taken for granted, work my butt off up to 12 hrs a day, 7 days a week, trying to keep it all together, but my income is barely making it..
so, how do i develop this 'winner take all' mentality?,
i could sure do with some lessons on - screw you jack, i want tangible evidence you are worthy to support before i believe or continue to give you my all.
sorry, end rant, just thought you guys might have some ideas.
you all appear so very kind, knowledgeable and merciful....
regards
Zanthor

Oxymoron

Well if God is in control he hasn't made such a good job of it, by all accounts. I mean this in the kindest possible way. The first step in becoming a Non-Believer is to take responsibility for the things that go on between your ears and your life. If you start to own the bad stuff, then it becomes your job to fix it, rather than a non-existent Sky Daddy who never will.

Nothing wrong with loving your enemy, etc. But you didn't need a book to tell you that bombing Iraq was wrong, did you? It came from you, and this just re-emphasises the above point: start to take responsibility for your thoughts and actions; you get to own the good stuff, too, and when you realise it's yours, you can start to generate your own self-esteem.

Repeat after me: I am not responsible for all the evils and injustices in the world. You cannot fix it all. Or even most of it. Or even some of it. In fact, the only bit that you can be sure about fixing is located precisely where you are now.

With regards to the kids, you do need to be assertive with them. It's hard to be assertive when your self-esteem is low, and it sounds like yours is. So start being positive about the stuff that you're good at and the things you can change. Then tell the little f**kers that if they don't do as they're told, then they're OUT. Tell their dad that you're going to do this, too. And if he doesn't like it, well, I think that the kids are no longer welcome, don't you?

In this world, bad things happen, and we atheists believe that there is no Big Plan in which those bad things will make sense. It is how we find the world. If you enjoy having the kids round, fine, but you cannot be a surrogate mother or secondary father to them for ever.

This resentment needs to be dealt with, for your own sake. The problem is not that other people are somehow making you do things you don't want to do (how could they do this?). The problem is that you are saying 'yes' to them. Again, take responsibility, say 'no' when you mean 'no'.

'Winner take all' has nothing to do with it. Life is not a zero-sum game - you don't get happy at the expense of someone else. Religion has, for millennia, been used as a proxy for human self-esteem and happiness. Trust me, it is entirely possible to be as happy and as fulfilled a human being without the need for external validation by an imaginary friend. After all, beliefs exist inside us, don't they?

Gee shucks!

MollyMac

It's against the rules of these boards to call anyone a liar so I'll confine myself to pointing out that your quote above would seem to contradict the earlier posts you've made in the twelve or so hours since you came to this board. Good to see we're making such a rapid convert out of you

I hope you will read Oxy's post carefully - he's been generous with his time and given you a courteous and thorough reply. He's obviously not the best-qualified person to answer your query:
Then again, this board isn't necessarily the best place to find someone with such a mentality, as you will discover for yourself if you're prepared to stick around long enough.

Zanthor

these are all good words and i thank you, i know of them allready of course, other like minded ppl have told me similar, just finding it hard to shake the - i am responsible - attitude. not just for the ills of the world, ( collective consciousness and all that ) but also my inherant resonsibility for providing to my utmost, to/for friend and foe alike. not to mention, family.
not sure how self esteem plays a part in the grand scheme of things, but i will ponder your words carefully.
i said i get the impression God wants to always be in control but i resist, maintaining i can achieve my goals under my own steam, without His direction, assistance.
however, my usual response is/has been, - i am big enough to give till it hurts, not just financially, fcod provision, a roof over thier ( all the kids ) heads, etc. but because the higher power requires it. if u accept the teachings of religions, ( which of course i realise, you dont ) like they, the prophets did, including Jesus, Buddha etc,
give all, and then give again.
this appears to be the obstacle.
does this mean, i am doing thier ( the kids, the ex wife ) bidding, and not my own.?
honestly, wether this is true or not, i am unsure.
i do what needs to be done, at any given moment, and to the limits of what i am capable of, does anyone else do less?
its survival, not much else you can do when your back is against the wall.
the resentment was, i thought, merely an abberation, similar to the mary/martha syndrome, ie. some are born to be workers, some others get to play. get the glory, and that i should be big nuff to overcome the hassle of being the one who has to do the hard yards.
nevertheless,
your insights are thought provioking and i thank you once again.
Zan

Zanthor

good point, taken, in explanation, the winner take all referance was due to my impressions of the Iraq versus USA scenario, or even such as displayed on this board. - the need for absolute rightness of lifestyle, beliefs, eg. athiesm versus believers.
i may be totally in error, but it appears to me, this is how it is between the 2 nations, or believers and non bellievers for that matter, but i do want to understand, of this much i am sure..
and i pondered wether it was perhaps similar to the attitude i need to adopt in order to survive right now. ie. a little bit of ruthlessness in me wouldnt go astray. i am being bled dry..
yet somehow, my being rebels against it. ( self presevation )
its way to stark, too horrific to imagine, let alone adopt.
i find it hard to accept the neccesity of - they must be wrong, we can waste them, no consequence, ergo, we survive, we are therefore righteous.
time will tell, both in Iraq, and the USA, and here on the home front hey?
anyways, thanks for your consideration, i appreciate it
Zanthor