Megatron

I'm curious on this subject... (question directed at everyone who reads) do you believe the use of illegal drugs, other than marijuana, to be immoral?

I'm talking about stuff like crystal meth (former addict...), cocaine, LSD, PCP, etc... Not marijuana. That's another discussion for another thread at another time.

I'm of the belief that there is no breach of morality regarding drugs unless you do something to another person while under the influence, and show a pattern of behaviour that dictates you would not do the same while not under said influence.

In other words, I believe that the right drugs can definitely turn some people into a monster, and those people should avoid those drugs... but... I don't believe that the use of drugs themselves is immoral, only the acts committed and whether or not drug influence was the factor.

I don't believe self-destruction to be immoral unless you take someone else with you. "Innocent" self-destruction such as this is just that, IMO.

Ideas? Opinions?

--edit to add--

If this topic has been done before, just say so...

[ March 14, 2002: Message edited by: Zero Angel ]</p>

MassAtheist

I generally agree with you. The only time I might disagree is with respect to loved ones. A person who destroys themself without regard to the feelings of others is, IMO, doing a "bad thing". I don't know if I'd call it immoral, per se, but I definitely would not call this a moral act.

To be clear, I'm talking about a person whose drug use doesn't cause them to do bad things while high, but slowly causes them to degenerate (sp?) mentally and physically. I think the same standard applies to alcohol or tobacco use.

Pseudonymph

Uh oh... This is an area that I feel very opinionated about and I hope I don't step on anyone's toes again.

To me, drugs are wrong...period. I know I sound like a d.a.r.e commercial, but that's honestly how I feel.
Ok, even more blunt honesty follows...
I also disagree with alchohol of any kind as well.

Why you ask? Well than I ask YOU why it is that people as a whole seem to feel the need to always be under some type of mind altering influence.
Whenever I go out with people, they are always shocked to find out I dont drink...EVEN THOUGH I'M UNDERAGE!

oops...I have to edit my post because I accidently hit enter...damn
anyway, people always ask me"how do you have fun when you go out?" It's like people cant believe that I can enjoy myself without being drunk or high.

I have never felt the NEED to drink or do drugs, even when I'm depressed. I just deal with it. And it boggles my mind to be around people who treat it so casually.
"yeah bob my wife left me so I crawled inside a whisky bottle last night."
Why has this happened all throughout history?
I did try drinking once, and it was disgusting. I felt horrible afterward, because I felt like I was poisening my body.

It does after all, destroy brain cells that cannot be replaced.
Now as for other people doing it? more power to you, but please dont look at people like they are aliens when they say that dont do it either.
Again, I dont want to offend anyone, but this is how I really feel about this.

thanks

[ March 14, 2002: Message edited by: SirenSpeak ]</p>

Pomp

SirenSpeak,

To me, drugs are wrong...period.

Why you ask? Well than I ask YOU why it is that people as a whole seem to feel the need to always be under some type of mind altering influence.

Hi SirenSpeak.

You have every right to hold your opinion ("drugs are bad"), but I don't think that "Why not?" is an acceptable justification if you wish to compel others to accept that opinion as true ("drugs are wrong.") Why should the rest of us accept your opinion that we ought not use mind altering substances?

As far as why some people feel the need to use such substances, I'm purely an alcohol man myself, so I can't speak to all such substance, but I find that certain social situations are more comfortable and more fun if my usually strictly reserved personality is less inhibited.

Pseudonymph

Meant to add this:

As far as morality goes, as long as you're only hurting yourself and no one else's lives are affected by it...than I guess it's ok. But do you realize how rare that really is? in most cases someone else WILL be affected. It destroys many families unfortunantly
Also, I realize that alchohol consumed in moderation dosent do a whole lot of damage, but if you're going to only drink a little, why not have water or a sprite or something?
I have tried it, and just from the smell half the time I refuse to believe its for the taste...blech!

Pseudonymph

PB...sorry I didnt mean to make it sound as if I was "better" or that everyone should feel as I do, believe me, I know that isnt the case.

You make some good points about social situations being easier if everyones drinking... I just figure, if people are going to see me as weird or stupid for not drinking, than I know that I really dont care what a shallow person like that thinks about me anyway.
Usually I have a sprite or something in my hand, and people assume it's mixed with something, and I leave it at that.

I'm not millitant about my stance here...just determined not to do it.
But I sure as hell dont go around advertising it to people who dont ask. So please no one think that.
Peace

MassAtheist

In all seriousness, good luck with your decision. As you have probably learned already, the peer pressure is pretty amazing. I was a determined non-drinker when I went to college - like you, I never liked the taste of it. But then a friend introduced me to gin and sprite and I ended up drinking pretty heavily my sophomore year. My grades suffered and my fiancee almost broke up with me. Fortunately, I learned quite a bit that year.

I still drink on occasion, but most of the time it's one drink with dinner. Sometimes on new year's I get together with some old friends and get a little silly, but that's about it.

To get back on topic, I don't think that my drinking was immoral, but some of my behvaior while drunk probably was at least "not socially acceptable" - still not sure if it was immoral.

Jamie_L

Is it morally wrong for someone to put themselves at risk by parachuting, free-climbing, or scaling Mount Everest?

Is it morally wrong for someone to cause themselves health, stress, and relationship problems by working too many hours a day?

If someone feels the need to constantly be in an altered state, is that _morally_ wrong? Pathetic, maybe. But morally wrong?

By my definition of morality, not really. Certainly if you bring harm to friends and family, then, yes, you have some moral issues. But drug use in and of itself seems totally amoral to me.

Jamie

Koyaanisqatsi

It's a natural process as old as the hills to want to alter one's consciousness and we're by no means the only animals on the planet that do so.

In fact, it's unavoidable and happens constantly throughout just about ever minute you are alive. Sirenspeak is a drug addict just as we all are, since without drugs (chemicals) none of us would be alive or cognitively processing information.

Your brain is a junkie's wet dream, full of the most powerful mood altering drugs Terrance McKenna ever salivated over. People just don't think of it that way because of social propaganda and operant conditioning.

That Sprite, for example, that SirenSpeak clings to is loaded with sugar that not just alters her mood and her consciousness (the manner in which she processes external/internal stimuli), but throws her entire body chemistry so far out of whack that it has to go into overdrive to segregate out the influx of sugar and store it as fat as soon as it is possible lest she go into a sugar coma and, possibly, die.

She just doesn't know any of that is happening, because she is, in essence, a sugar junkie and has been since childhood, most likely.

Frankly, to regulate against any form of mind altering substance (one of the largest misnomers known, BTW) is what is immoral, IMO.

Putting people in jail because they sell LSD is like putting people in jail for selling bullets (actually, it would be far more moral to do that than the former).

At best, it's a social problem, not a criminal one.

But, morality aside, just on a human level, if we were to get rid of the "red flag" scare tactic drugs our mind control leaders use to program kids like Siren against, then we need to get rid of 99 percent of the entire world's cultural collections (art, music, literature, religion, philosophy) as just about every single element of the majority of such constructs came from people who were--in the immortal words of the late, great Bill Hicks--really high!

There's a reason our society demonizes drug use and it has absolutely nothing to do with statistics and everything to do with control and who holds the reigns of control.

Imagine if we ever taught children the difference between abusing a drug and using a drug, instead of just childishly declaring, "Just say no!"

That kind of simplistic mind control declarative (coming as it did, BTW, from a confirmed pill-popping junkie) is just rampant ignorance that leads otherwise intelligent people (like Siren) to operantly behave in certain ways, because she was programmed to and not because of informed, personal comprehension of what is involved.

I know, because I used to be just like she is, believe it or not, until one day someone said, "You know, for an intelligent guy, you sure do spew out your ass on an awful lot of topics you know nothing about first hand."

As a result (pot and LSD being my preferred external stimuli), arguably every aspect of my intelligence and application of intelligence has expanded in literally immeasurable ways, precisely because I seek to use these substances, not simply abuse them.

I agree there are of course many substances that are just worthless physical stimulants, such as crack and crystal, but I also remember having incredible experiences while on both substances, so, as in anything else in life, it is the experience and the knowledge gained that is important, IMO, and, as others have said, if it's not hurting anyone else (and I mean that directly, since there is a significant difference again between using and abusing, which, in turn can also all too easily be a rationalization rather than a barometer) then it's fine by me.

Personally, I think everyone should smoke pot just once in America as a rite of passage instead of drinking that first underage beer as the ritual goes, but then that's a topic for another thread, too.

Siren, I'm sorry to hear that you will most likely succumb to operant conditioning and continue to think (as I did) that it was actually your own choice instead of inculcated fear, because I personally think you could learn a tremendous amount through directly experiencing that which you rail against (well, "rail" is too strong a word, but you know what I'm talking about), but no big deal, just an observation from one who knows.

But I would hope you will look at your bookshelf one day or stroll through a museum some time and consider all of the positive aspects to certain "consciousness expanding" drugs that you are never told about, because our society has the emotional and intellectual maturity of an eight year old boy.

It's always personally distressing to perceive someone reacting to propaganda and operant conditioning the way it seems you are here, because I am a big proponent of Jung's theory about the collective unconscious; something I never would have begun to comprehend, IMO, until I experienced pot.

So, put that in your pipe and smoke it. Just a friendly suggestion.

[ March 14, 2002: Message edited by: Koyaanisqatsi ]</p>

christ-on-a-stick

*pops out briefly from lurker status*

Just wanted to say to Koy, that was put brilliantly. I could not agree more.

The slogan that has always irritated me is DARE's "Drug Use is Life Abuse". It makes me want to scream - "Hello?!! Drug ABUSE is Life Abuse." There is a difference between use and abuse, and IMO as long as we fail to teach children the difference we are not educating but merely propogandizing.

Also, Koy, along the same lines as your experiences with pot, I have experienced some "higher states of consciousness" while on both ecstasy and 'shrooms that have permanently changed my worldview (for the better, I believe). I wouldn't change having done either of them, and while I probably won't do the mushrooms again because I had some negative physical effects, I will probably continue to do ecstasy at the same occasional rate (about 4 times a year) until I get pregnant in a few years.

BTW... Siren... do you drink coffee or caffeinated sodas?