Freethought & Rationalism Archive

aatayyab · 06-24-2003, 01:47 AM

Wow,

This is just unexplainably great thread. I was NEVER expecting such thing or discussion about ANY subject ANYWHERE. Congrats.... Internet Infidels Discussion Forums.... let me assure you, that as a temporary being on this earth just like many zillion of human beings of past, present or (uncertatin) future, I would like to express my solely gratitude to the Moderators and Participants. All of you are nice, hard working, though-provoking, intelligent, nice, (my dictionary of word ends here since I am basically a Punjabi/Urdu speaking guy). However, I am sure you all got a BRIEF thank you from me.

The most talked-about was a creature called "River", well, this guy/gal was great in DISCUSSING but frankly unable to PROVE anything right here in front of me or you. Yes, I want GOD to come in front of me, show me HIS mercy, HIS purpose of creating me, SHOW me everything that HE supposedly tries to hide. Hide for what? Quran/Hadith has been around me for about 33 years and frankly, they don't COUNT that much as they used to when I was 7 years old or when at the age of 19, I wanted to go to Jihad in Afghanistan or in Kashmir but the border army sent me back since I was not looking like those JIHADI types.

In Pakistan, or in any muslim-ruled country, the punishment of anyone who becomes infidel or Atheist, is DEATH without any delay and without any trial. People simply pull you out of your home and BUTCHER you as they do to a goat on eve of Eid. So, personally, I am afraid of such persecution or punishment alongwith my 3 year old daughter and a loving wife. I simply would like to run away from such a brutal place, but where to? We all have to die, but dying like that, in the streets, being butchered at the hands of ignorant is the most FRIGHTENING scense that my urine gets its way.

Today, the whole humanity is suffering. There were no golden age of Islam or Christianity or whatever religion. There were always pains as the historians speak of. But as today, I am alive, the pains that I witness, are the PAINS that i care. What is the purpose of you and me here? What is the purpose of this sky, earth, things around you and me, the different attitudes of people around us, the very keyboard that i am typing these words into a lifeless screen, NO PURPOSE.

We all self-defeat us each other, that since, there is a GOD, we have to follow HIM. While saying these words, I am ashamed in myself since believing in God has been my way of life for 33 years and it suddenly STOPS. It looks like a COMMA suddenly creeps up in my normally flowing life. What, Why, Where, Who? I simply am not answered by ANYONE so far. Sorry. For the sake of discussion, or over a cup of tea or Qahwa in a desert, such discussions may seem nice.

Yes, I am being carried away by all those bombs dropped on homes of Iraqis, Afghans, Americans, Israelis, Kashmiris, Chechens, etc. Why do we separate our religion from politics? Why have we created two different words for the same thing? We do all such butchery in the name of either serving our nation or our religion. If you or me have even the TINIEST honor of life as a human being, why don't you commit suicide on seeing such incident? Why do we keep on laughing and dining out in presence of such misery around us? Why? Is there any so-called God, Is there any so-called God's soldiers, Is there any so-called prophets, or any RESCUE TEAM to help us? I may be too much carried away by words as you may think, I may be sounding like a BULLLLSHIITT to you, I may be the most STIIINKKING thinker that you may have ever met, for this I, forget this ME, forget this whole thing about YOURSELF. Try to think on a larger scale. Try to narrate your physical existance, in this physical world with physical happenings around you. Who saw in his/her movie camera that the people inside the planes were MUSLIMS? Which suicide bombers (a Palestinian teenager) even gave it a thought that those Israeli childern, women, old persons are NOT their enemies? I am sorry to say, this is CLEAR bulllshhiit, anarchy, lack of religion, lack of politics, lack of thoughtfulness, lack of wisdom, lack of science, and above all, lack of HUMANITY.

I hope, I made you people feel quite ASHAMED of yourself for existing out there without any purpose. Sorry, but I had to. Love, peace, birthday cake, sweets, pepsi, and VOILA.. enjoy life in this HELL like earth. All you Atheists, muslims, jews, christians, are all nothing more than a crap of shhhh.. sorry, did I say too much about my anger that I could not control into typing these words. I am sure I must be lablelled infidel, or OPPOSITE to whatever you believe, I must stoned to death. What is the need of a person who thinks NOT for him/herself, but for miseries of others in the name of religion, nation, etc. etc.

My mind is right now aching with pain, and my heart pounding greatly. I am feeling as if i was a very tiny ant who tried to harm a very big lion (this world).

Please do one thing, if you can, try to forget ANYTHING i said and go on with your so-called NORMAL life. Thanks but no thanks,

EstherRose · 06-24-2003, 02:13 AM

Quote:

If you or me have even the TINIEST honor of life as a human being, why don't you commit suicide on seeing such incident? Why do we keep on laughing and dining out in presence of such misery around us? Why? Is there any so-called God, Is there any so-called God's soldiers, Is there any so-called prophets, or any RESCUE TEAM to help us?

I hope, I made you people feel quite ASHAMED of yourself for existing out there without any purpose.

Exist without a purpose? That is denying God. I have a purpose in this life. I may not always know what it is, but I have one.

With God, all things are possible.

You may not believe in anything right now. You may be feeling the horrors of war. I lost someone I know, a Pakistani, who was killed on the streets of Lahore months ago, ambushed while driving. The violence in your land is all over this world. It doesn't make any sense. We are hateful creatures at times who commit terrible deeds.

Christians believe we can speak to God through prayer, and He answers us. It is not just reciting verses, it is a one-on-one heart-to-heart conversation. When we pray, we ask God in the name of Jesus. My prayers are always answered. Perhaps in your time of need you should tell God how you feel. Ask Him to show you the way. Ask Him to help you with your doubts. I feel confident that He will answer your prayer.

I will pray for you too.

MollyMac · 06-24-2003, 03:42 AM

EstherRose, did you read the OP:

Quote:

Note: Please don't try to make me infidel as I am not trying to make you a Muslim here. Just a pure intellectual discussion with reasons and proof only.

I don't think trying to convert him to your particular brand of theism was quite what he was looking for either. He already said a great deal about his belief and relationship with his god.

aattayab

Quote:

..forget this ME, forget this whole thing about YOURSELF. Try to think on a larger scale. Try to narrate your physical existance, in this physical world with physical happenings around you.

Good advice - but on this board you are largely preaching to the converted. People who post on these boards do think on a larger scale.

Quote:

I hope, I made you people feel quite ASHAMED of yourself for existing out there without any purpose

No you didn't make me feel ashamed actually. Why do people get so hung up on the idea that existence must have a purpose? Why is it so painful to accept that we were not created, we evolved and we just ARE? We make of our lives what we will and the only thing that would make me ashamed is if I did something harmful to another or nothing useful or worthwhile or for the good of others. Sorry if this is a bit small-scale for you but as I am aware of my aware of my limitations and don't waste time appealing to a non-existent supernatural power, it is the best I can do.

Quote:

If you or me have even the TINIEST honor of life as a human being, why don't you commit suicide on seeing such incident?

I prefer to stay alive and keep striving for a better world. How does taking one's own life honour anyone else's? This is one of the most irrational suggestions I've ever heard.

Quote:

Please do one thing, if you can, try to forget ANYTHING i said and go on with your so-called NORMAL life. Thanks but no thanks,

Will do - but do you have to be so ungracious?

EstherRose · 06-24-2003, 04:57 AM

Sorry MollyMac, I think you misunderstand me.

I was trying to offer comfort after reading his latest post. I remembered how it was explained to me when the Pakistani I knew was killed. The situation over there is quite dreadful for its people. Aatayyab sounded despondent over events beyond his control. I thought I was letting him know I understood and sympathized. From what I know of islam, their form of prayer is to recite verses of the Koran. I only told him what I do, nothing more. Than I suggested he turn to God, not necessarily my God. Since he is or was a muslim, I did not believe that would be out of line.

I'm still trying to get used to how things are done on this board. I appreciate the feedback. I am however at a loss as to how I can attempt to comfort someone if I am not supposed to even say something about my beliefs. I wasn't trying to push them on anyone.

MollyMac · 06-24-2003, 05:46 AM

EstherRose, I know your post was well-intentioned and that you were trying to offer comfort. It's just that in your last paragraph:

Quote:

When we pray, we ask God in the name of Jesus. My prayers are always answered. Perhaps in your time of need you should tell God how you feel. Ask Him to show you the way. Ask Him to help you with your doubts. I feel confident that He will answer your prayer.

you seem to be suggesting he tries praying the Christian way for a change. I know you're not necessarily trying to "push" your beliefs on anyone but to me it reads like a subtle attempt at conversion.

Quote:

I am however at a loss as to how I can attempt to comfort someone if I am not supposed to even say something about my beliefs.

Trying to empathise and offer comfort in an appopriate manner is a challenge for all of us. I hope that you will stay on these boards and come to understand just how irritating and patronising it can be to be offered comfort by someone who insists on referrering to their own beliefs when we don't share them. We have discussed this issue a few times - but not in GRD, which is reserved for discussions ABOUT religion.

Thank you for the courteous manner in which you post, anyway, and sorry if I seem a bit hard on you - I don't mean to be

.

EstherRose · 06-24-2003, 06:26 AM

Thanks.

It's hard sometimes to convey one's thoughts through the use of message boards. So much non verbal communication gets lost, and things come out a little differently.

I enjoy coming here and hope to stay for quite a while.

River · 06-24-2003, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by diana
On haitus, huh? Hmk. Should you return to this thread, I thought I'd toss in another post for you to ignore. What the hell.

I agree he can be a bit abrasive, but that's part of his charm. It grows on you.

I daresay you've done your best to accomodate all comers to the extent that the Koran will allow. When the Koran still doesn't make sense or uphold what science has shown to be an accurate depiction of reality, you run and hide behind the old "we can't fully understand" arguments.

Your basic assumptions appear to be: (1) there is a god, (2) he not only made us, but has a continuing interest in our activities, (3) he gave us scriptures to guide our behaviors, (4) those scriptures are still in existence today (on earth), and (5) we have ready access to them.

You've read dozens of scriptures, you say. Assuming you read them all before you chose one as "best" (as opposed to growing up in the Muslim faith, accepting it as the true faith, and reading other "scriptures" along the way that you assumed were false before you read them), I admire your honesty and drive. But while you were doing this, how seriously did you consider the possibility that no god exists at all?

I see you've remarked that emotional needs to be more rational in his approach to scripture, and you've hinted that haverbob is also allowing his feelings to cloud his judgment. But how seriously have you considered the possibility that there is no god and no afterlife, that this is all we've got, without allowing your own judgment to be influenced by your fear of death and desire to believe there's someone watching out for you?

It sounds like when you say "everything is in there," you don't really mean anything at all by "everything." It's more of a poetic device, not meant to be understood literally, isn't it?

Christians are fond of doing the same thing. Everything is in the Bible, they say. Really? I should be able to find instructions on building a house, then. Useful, timeless information, that. But other than "build your house on a rock" and "don't divide it against itself" (that one's a stretch, I know), there's no information at all. This is where Christians say, "Not everything everything. You know what I mean." No, I don't. You say "everything" but you don't really mean everything.

All this says to me is that you don't know what you mean, but you're using a phrase that sounds good, impressive, and best of all, comforting.

Would you mind if I reword that sentence? I think you misplaced a phrase. Here: It is true many Muslims believe that the Quran is the Uncreated word of God and that it is not open to interpretation. I think this is what you meant, because when it comes down to it, you are (have thus far shown yourself to be) unable to demonstrate that the Koran is the Uncreated word of God. The best you've been able to "prove" is that you believe it is.

Your belief is not to be confused with fact.

I agree. I do hate it when believers read anti-atheist websites/books/rhetoric and think they understand atheism, so I can identify with you here. How better to understand something than to go to the source? Go to those who subscribe to that viewpoint and ask them questions. Read their literature and think (critically) for yourself. Do you agree?

However, I'll add that it's equally important, if one is to make an informed judgment, to also critically read the literature/rhetoric against that viewpoint. Are the detractors misunderstanding or misrepresenting the opposing viewpoint? Or are those who subscribe to that viewpoint ignoring or glossing over its inherent contradictions?

The most important thing is to think for yourself. I don't think it's possible to do this fairly unless you consider all sides of the equasion.

For this reason, I read the Koran. To be fair, I didn't read it in Arabic. However, the "Koran in Arabic is the only true Koran" position presents some problems. Yes--all translations will fail at some point. But all living languages change meanings over time, so even the Koran doesn't mean the same thing to those living today that it did when Mohammed dictated it. Even were I to learn Arabic in order to best understand the Koran, I--as a native speaker of English--would never be fluent in the language and, at best, would only understand it in light of the concepts I've absorbed from my own native tongue. IOWs, my understanding would still be English-based. So please forgive me for drawing my conclusions based upon an English translation.

It is far and away the most boring book I've ever read. The repetition is mind-numbing. Mohammed appears to have frequently forgotten that he already had certain thoughts on paper--which I suppose is simple to do when you're illiterate--and kept repeating them, often verbatim. There is no rhyme or reason to the order of the book--something scholars admit up front. There is contradiction, and Mohammed admits as much (or Allah, if you prefer, as I'm sure you do), using the old "I said that to test you" rhetoric that Christians are also fond of.

I've asked questions of Muslims concerning their faith (as many have questioned you here) and pointed out verses in the Koran that contradict what science has discovered, and so far, they respond with stuff like

...which is just another way of saying, "You've stumped me, but I'm still convinced the Koran is the Uncreated word of God." In other words, it isn't an answer at all.

I'm very sensitive to "answers" that don't in fact answer anything. Right now, my bullshit detector is clicking like mad.

"Somewhat ambiguous"? Hm.

What you mean is, there's this one verse in a book that supposedly God-breathed that clearly contradicts something science has proven to be true beyond a reasonable doubt. Apologists for that book jump through hoops to explain how it was meant metaphorically or...or...um...poetically (yeah...that's it...that's the ticket), or...oh...this one's my favorite: It was put there to test our faith! There are also the twin "God's wisdom is greater than ours" and the "We just don't have the wisdom to comprehend what he means" trapdoors.

This is not "ambiguity." It is apologetics. It is the desperation of the trapped.

The Christian bible uses the same argument in defense of itself, as I'm sure you know.

When I catch a person lying, they know it, and they tell me, "I don't lie," I don't believe them--I believe what I've seen them do. By the same token, when a text in which I've found contradictions tells me it doesn't have them, I believe my own observations in lieu of accepting as truth its claim about itself.

You may see my approach as argumentative and antagonistic. I see it as common sense.

d

Diana,

I am not gonna ignore this post. I will respond to you in roughly 8 yards length in time.
-River

River · 06-24-2003, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by aatayyab
Wow,

This is just unexplainably great thread. I was NEVER expecting such thing or discussion about ANY subject ANYWHERE. Congrats.... Internet Infidels Discussion Forums.... let me assure you, that as a temporary being on this earth just like many zillion of human beings of past, present or (uncertatin) future, I would like to express my solely gratitude to the Moderators and Participants. All of you are nice, hard working, though-provoking, intelligent, nice, (my dictionary of word ends here since I am basically a Punjabi/Urdu speaking guy). However, I am sure you all got a BRIEF thank you from me.

The most talked-about was a creature called "River", well, this guy/gal was great in DISCUSSING but frankly unable to PROVE anything right here in front of me or you. Yes, I want GOD to come in front of me, show me HIS mercy, HIS purpose of creating me, SHOW me everything that HE supposedly tries to hide. Hide for what? Quran/Hadith has been around me for about 33 years and frankly, they don't COUNT that much as they used to when I was 7 years old or when at the age of 19, I wanted to go to Jihad in Afghanistan or in Kashmir but the border army sent me back since I was not looking like those JIHADI types.

In Pakistan, or in any muslim-ruled country, the punishment of anyone who becomes infidel or Atheist, is DEATH without any delay and without any trial. People simply pull you out of your home and BUTCHER you as they do to a goat on eve of Eid. So, personally, I am afraid of such persecution or punishment alongwith my 3 year old daughter and a loving wife. I simply would like to run away from such a brutal place, but where to? We all have to die, but dying like that, in the streets, being butchered at the hands of ignorant is the most FRIGHTENING scense that my urine gets its way.

Today, the whole humanity is suffering. There were no golden age of Islam or Christianity or whatever religion. There were always pains as the historians speak of. But as today, I am alive, the pains that I witness, are the PAINS that i care. What is the purpose of you and me here? What is the purpose of this sky, earth, things around you and me, the different attitudes of people around us, the very keyboard that i am typing these words into a lifeless screen, NO PURPOSE.

We all self-defeat us each other, that since, there is a GOD, we have to follow HIM. While saying these words, I am ashamed in myself since believing in God has been my way of life for 33 years and it suddenly STOPS. It looks like a COMMA suddenly creeps up in my normally flowing life. What, Why, Where, Who? I simply am not answered by ANYONE so far. Sorry. For the sake of discussion, or over a cup of tea or Qahwa in a desert, such discussions may seem nice.

Yes, I am being carried away by all those bombs dropped on homes of Iraqis, Afghans, Americans, Israelis, Kashmiris, Chechens, etc. Why do we separate our religion from politics? Why have we created two different words for the same thing? We do all such butchery in the name of either serving our nation or our religion. If you or me have even the TINIEST honor of life as a human being, why don't you commit suicide on seeing such incident? Why do we keep on laughing and dining out in presence of such misery around us? Why? Is there any so-called God, Is there any so-called God's soldiers, Is there any so-called prophets, or any RESCUE TEAM to help us? I may be too much carried away by words as you may think, I may be sounding like a BULLLLSHIITT to you, I may be the most STIIINKKING thinker that you may have ever met, for this I, forget this ME, forget this whole thing about YOURSELF. Try to think on a larger scale. Try to narrate your physical existance, in this physical world with physical happenings around you. Who saw in his/her movie camera that the people inside the planes were MUSLIMS? Which suicide bombers (a Palestinian teenager) even gave it a thought that those Israeli childern, women, old persons are NOT their enemies? I am sorry to say, this is CLEAR bulllshhiit, anarchy, lack of religion, lack of politics, lack of thoughtfulness, lack of wisdom, lack of science, and above all, lack of HUMANITY.

I hope, I made you people feel quite ASHAMED of yourself for existing out there without any purpose. Sorry, but I had to. Love, peace, birthday cake, sweets, pepsi, and VOILA.. enjoy life in this HELL like earth. All you Atheists, muslims, jews, christians, are all nothing more than a crap of shhhh.. sorry, did I say too much about my anger that I could not control into typing these words. I am sure I must be lablelled infidel, or OPPOSITE to whatever you believe, I must stoned to death. What is the need of a person who thinks NOT for him/herself, but for miseries of others in the name of religion, nation, etc. etc.

My mind is right now aching with pain, and my heart pounding greatly. I am feeling as if i was a very tiny ant who tried to harm a very big lion (this world).

Please do one thing, if you can, try to forget ANYTHING i said and go on with your so-called NORMAL life. Thanks but no thanks,

Well thanks....Its kinda weird being this "one-man army". However, I certainly do not feel defeated. I have been asked to support arguments that involve Time and Space, Semantics and Syntax, Poetics, Metaphors , Partial Personifications , Signs and Sciences , Evolution and Creation. It is difficult expressing what I know and what I do not know, especially when I've read dozens and dozens worth....( and most have read paragraphs' worth) . I try to look at Islam, not from the perspective of one ( River's). I have assimilated/ adjusted for perspectives that involve, Philosophy, Mysticism ( Sufi ism and Gnosis) , Code 19 Mathematical system, Scientific Relativism as well Sharia [as written], including Sunni and Shia Perspectives. I have read Anti-Muslim sites for 7 years before I just got bored with them. I have read many Atheist articles over the years. However, I will (still) defend the Quran, based on my knowledge and taking into consideration that the audience has a one sided view of Islam/ Koran.

P.S : This is not the best time to leave Islam. This is the Transition. This Ramadan 2003 is Ramazan with a Double Eclipse [Full Solar + Full Lunar Nov 9, Nov 23]. This is almost Unprecedented. The Hadiths portrays this time period, When Islam will be large and Hollow with only Dictators Leading the Oppressed....And then Imam Mahdi an Unknown "Commander" accepts the allegience of the Syrians and Iraqis.........But ofcourse, this is fluff to all. fluff......fluff

Rescue team? Why not wait a little more. Age 33 is only the beginning. Symbollically speaking, Age-40 is the age of Maturity...What do you make of the Imminent Return of Isa Masih ( Jesus Christ) in Damascus, Syria after the collapse of Al-Aqsa Mosque...err...fluff

What do You know of the One-eyed Tyrant ( Dajjal ) from Khurasan? Do you know that a certain character (alive today) fits the profile and exact physical description....what is this you say....fluff?

Yellum Notnef · 06-24-2003, 09:54 AM

Quote:

What do You know of the One-eyed Tyrant ( Dajjal ) from Khurasan? Do you know that a certain character (alive today) fits the profile and exact physical description....what is this you say....fluff?

Who's got one eye and fits the description of this Dajjal thingy?

River · 06-24-2003, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fenton Mulley
Who's got one eye and fits the description of this Dajjal thingy?

the Supreme Leader of the Taliban.

P.S the Taliban are actually Israelites ( Muslim Israelites). The Afghanis, Kashmiris and the Pathans of Pakistan are descended from The 10 lost Tribes of Israel ( as well as Ethiopan and Yemeni Jews). Thus this Taliban v.s Israel war , that began after the 11nth of Sept, is really a war between Tribes of Israelites. The Taliban Israelites and the Israel Israelites.

06-24-2003, 01:47 AM	#101
aatayyab Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Lahore, Pakistan Posts: 36	Wow......!!! Many Many Thanks to you all.... Wow, This is just unexplainably great thread. I was NEVER expecting such thing or discussion about ANY subject ANYWHERE. Congrats.... Internet Infidels Discussion Forums.... let me assure you, that as a temporary being on this earth just like many zillion of human beings of past, present or (uncertatin) future, I would like to express my solely gratitude to the Moderators and Participants. All of you are nice, hard working, though-provoking, intelligent, nice, (my dictionary of word ends here since I am basically a Punjabi/Urdu speaking guy). However, I am sure you all got a BRIEF thank you from me. The most talked-about was a creature called "River", well, this guy/gal was great in DISCUSSING but frankly unable to PROVE anything right here in front of me or you. Yes, I want GOD to come in front of me, show me HIS mercy, HIS purpose of creating me, SHOW me everything that HE supposedly tries to hide. Hide for what? Quran/Hadith has been around me for about 33 years and frankly, they don't COUNT that much as they used to when I was 7 years old or when at the age of 19, I wanted to go to Jihad in Afghanistan or in Kashmir but the border army sent me back since I was not looking like those JIHADI types. In Pakistan, or in any muslim-ruled country, the punishment of anyone who becomes infidel or Atheist, is DEATH without any delay and without any trial. People simply pull you out of your home and BUTCHER you as they do to a goat on eve of Eid. So, personally, I am afraid of such persecution or punishment alongwith my 3 year old daughter and a loving wife. I simply would like to run away from such a brutal place, but where to? We all have to die, but dying like that, in the streets, being butchered at the hands of ignorant is the most FRIGHTENING scense that my urine gets its way. Today, the whole humanity is suffering. There were no golden age of Islam or Christianity or whatever religion. There were always pains as the historians speak of. But as today, I am alive, the pains that I witness, are the PAINS that i care. What is the purpose of you and me here? What is the purpose of this sky, earth, things around you and me, the different attitudes of people around us, the very keyboard that i am typing these words into a lifeless screen, NO PURPOSE. We all self-defeat us each other, that since, there is a GOD, we have to follow HIM. While saying these words, I am ashamed in myself since believing in God has been my way of life for 33 years and it suddenly STOPS. It looks like a COMMA suddenly creeps up in my normally flowing life. What, Why, Where, Who? I simply am not answered by ANYONE so far. Sorry. For the sake of discussion, or over a cup of tea or Qahwa in a desert, such discussions may seem nice. Yes, I am being carried away by all those bombs dropped on homes of Iraqis, Afghans, Americans, Israelis, Kashmiris, Chechens, etc. Why do we separate our religion from politics? Why have we created two different words for the same thing? We do all such butchery in the name of either serving our nation or our religion. If you or me have even the TINIEST honor of life as a human being, why don't you commit suicide on seeing such incident? Why do we keep on laughing and dining out in presence of such misery around us? Why? Is there any so-called God, Is there any so-called God's soldiers, Is there any so-called prophets, or any RESCUE TEAM to help us? I may be too much carried away by words as you may think, I may be sounding like a BULLLLSHIITT to you, I may be the most STIIINKKING thinker that you may have ever met, for this I, forget this ME, forget this whole thing about YOURSELF. Try to think on a larger scale. Try to narrate your physical existance, in this physical world with physical happenings around you. Who saw in his/her movie camera that the people inside the planes were MUSLIMS? Which suicide bombers (a Palestinian teenager) even gave it a thought that those Israeli childern, women, old persons are NOT their enemies? I am sorry to say, this is CLEAR bulllshhiit, anarchy, lack of religion, lack of politics, lack of thoughtfulness, lack of wisdom, lack of science, and above all, lack of HUMANITY. I hope, I made you people feel quite ASHAMED of yourself for existing out there without any purpose. Sorry, but I had to. Love, peace, birthday cake, sweets, pepsi, and VOILA.. enjoy life in this HELL like earth. All you Atheists, muslims, jews, christians, are all nothing more than a crap of shhhh.. sorry, did I say too much about my anger that I could not control into typing these words. I am sure I must be lablelled infidel, or OPPOSITE to whatever you believe, I must stoned to death. What is the need of a person who thinks NOT for him/herself, but for miseries of others in the name of religion, nation, etc. etc. My mind is right now aching with pain, and my heart pounding greatly. I am feeling as if i was a very tiny ant who tried to harm a very big lion (this world). Please do one thing, if you can, try to forget ANYTHING i said and go on with your so-called NORMAL life. Thanks but no thanks,

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06-24-2003, 04:57 AM	#104
EstherRose Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Arizona Posts: 183	Sorry MollyMac, I think you misunderstand me. I was trying to offer comfort after reading his latest post. I remembered how it was explained to me when the Pakistani I knew was killed. The situation over there is quite dreadful for its people. Aatayyab sounded despondent over events beyond his control. I thought I was letting him know I understood and sympathized. From what I know of islam, their form of prayer is to recite verses of the Koran. I only told him what I do, nothing more. Than I suggested he turn to God, not necessarily my God. Since he is or was a muslim, I did not believe that would be out of line. I'm still trying to get used to how things are done on this board. I appreciate the feedback. I am however at a loss as to how I can attempt to comfort someone if I am not supposed to even say something about my beliefs. I wasn't trying to push them on anyone.

06-24-2003, 06:26 AM	#106
EstherRose Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Arizona Posts: 183	Thanks. It's hard sometimes to convey one's thoughts through the use of message boards. So much non verbal communication gets lost, and things come out a little differently. I enjoy coming here and hope to stay for quite a while.

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