Vinnie

It its too much of a stretch for me to see Joseph as being that timid/credulous. I tend to think that a more likely scenario has Mary and Joseph having sex before the, as you put it, nisuin. Chilton states that this practive was broadly tolerated.

Matthew's virgin birth clears up anything embarrassing that might have originally been there.

Vinnie

Vinnie

That site doesn't give any time frames:

on what grounds do we know this would be appliable to first-century Judaism?

Asha'man

Probably the young Mary had been fooling around, not thinking much about the consequences. Sounds just like a typical teenager today....

Given the several Gospel accounts of Joseph being skeptical about Mary's pregnancy, I think it is pretty clear that Joseph didn't think he himself was responsible. He was ready to divorce her until "convinced" not to.

Ever notice that Joseph dissapears from the Gospels entirely? I wonder if he really did divorce/abandon Mary, and the authors didn't want to mention it from embarassment. Maybe the birthing in a barn was because Joseph wouldn't allow her in his house?

Vinnie

I thought it was a cave.

Vinnie

Amos

What I find most interesting is that people will cling to wrong opinions and then claim that a virgin birth is not possible.

Joyce held that Joseph was "pregnant with dispair" and therefore had to give an "account of himself" all the way back to the state of mind he was at birth. Hence the census at Beth-le-hem. On this journey, Mary (his subconscious female identity) was in charge and Joseph, the ego identity, was following behind as if he was beyond surrender.

In this fashion the whole story fits like a glove and no paradoxes or contradictions remain.

Vinnie

Who is Joyce?

Vinnie

Amos

James Joyce.

Kama

http://www.google.com/custom?cof=L%3...org&q=panthera

CX

Ultimately, there is virtually no evidence of any kind with respect to Jesus' birth. The most we can tell from the current state of the evidence is that there was some controversy surrounding his infancy which impinged on his followers' claims that he was the Messiah. My guess is that he was born the usual way somewhere in Galilee, possibly to parents who weren't married, and that the virgin birth stories in GLk and GMt are simply made up out of whole cloth for theological reasons. The whole Pantera story seems equally contrived and was probably made up by Rabbinc Jews to refute the virgin birth claims of Xians. My impression is that none of them Jew or Xian alike had any clue about the circumstances of Jesus' birth. And why should they? Here we have this essential nobody who suddenly pops on the scene at age 30 or so, gets executed and it isn't until some 40 years later that anyone writes anything about his life. All there is is rumor and speculation and those on each side making up "just so" stories to account for it.

Amos

But yes, Jesus was conceived by the great sin of Joseph who was a carpenter because carpenters are known to make many things and since all is made in sin Joseph was a great sinner. Despite this sinful nature was he an "upright man" (see the cause for conflict in the mind of Joseph?) and therefore ended up on his [unwanted] journey to Bethlehem.

The concept sin is not a violation of the law but includes the coming together of two stands in the rout of creation. Hence, Joseph was a big sinner and Jesus later carried the sins of Joseph that had since become "his world" to the cross.