Freethought & Rationalism Archive

FarSeeker · 01-14-2003, 04:53 PM

Owl, posted April 03, 2002 08:51 PM

Quote:

Mass Murderer?

A huge asteroid strike is badly needed. I think we could survive and that our knowledge and technology could survive.

In this way, we would sping into the future...Progress would be phenomenal. Christanity would survive of course. Can't be helped, but then they would be in a much more hostile environment.

P.S. Polar Bear (ref: December 6, 2002 10:47 PM)

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" I would like to unequivocally condemn the following:
�
Dashing of infants against the rocks (Psalm 137)
The smashing of asteroids into Earth (although this isn't really a human act, is it?)"

Please note that you seem to be the only Atheist on this forum who does so, but that is not the point.
The point is that Owl wished that millions would die so Atheists could gain control of the world. And none of you criticized Owl for it.

Originally posted by DigitalDruid:

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�But for extreme cruelty you need irrational religious fanaticism. �

DD�s statement has just been proven wrong!

The Psalm 137 reference is a response to a taunt by Jews� captors. While marching the Jews� to captivity in Babylon, the captors taunted the Jews to sing a song of their home. The Jews, in a fit of pique or sarcasm sang about attacking their captors� families. It's like the T-shirt I once saw of a little mouse standing on a rock about to be caught by an eagle. The mouse, unable to escape, was �flipping the bird� at the eagle.

The Jews were understandably PO'ed. If you have a problem with this, too bad.

David M. Payne · 01-15-2003, 12:30 AM

Amusing FS, but beside the point as usual. We all repeat ourselves responding to you, and the problems of God/religion. After all that�s what this site is about in great part, the problems of God/religion, and what to do about them, among other things. So I don't think I misinterpret things at all, but that�s what makes it a debate, isn't it? Your whole post here assumes one thing, (correct me if I'm wrong) that atheism and God/religion are on different sides of the same coin, rivals for power. As rivals they have had the same will to power and have used it for good, or evil, right? They aren�t rivals for power FS, nor are they any kind of equals, they are two different things. One thing, Abrahamic religion, is an authoritarian dogma and is immensely powerful. The other thing, atheism, is the non-belief in God, and it is not powerful at all. That doesn�t mean some atheists aren�t powerful, but I'll get to that later.

The Abrahamic Religions are active authoritarian religious movements that seek to have their will imposed on everyone, "willingly" or otherwise. In addition they are in conflict with each other, as is plainly visible to even a casual observer of history or current world events. And this conflict has no end that I can see, for they all believe they have the true path to God and salvation, and the others are false paths, and are led by false prophets. (See The Story of Bob, for a much longer, more in depth and more amusing look at this argument here.) And they excuse the act of genocide etc that your God was fabled to have done in the great flood as "necessary," or "justified." You can peddle that "Gods ends justify his means" BS belief all you want FS, I'm not buying into it. It's the same rationalization that the Marxist and Fascists use. I wonder where they got it?

Atheism is just the non-belief in God, there is no other dogma that atheists follow that flows out of atheism. Period. (And I'm not an atheist, but I might play one in my next story.

)

Some atheists are also followers of other kinds of authoritarian dogma, such as Marxism or Fascism, which resemble religious dogma in how they operate, but that is what they follow, authoritarian dogma, not the tenets of atheism. There aren't any tenets of atheism, it is simply the non-belief in a God. I also condemn all the other forms of authoritarian dogma, secular or religious. So again, the evil done by some people who were atheists flowed out of their own authoritarian beliefs, Marxism, Fascism etc, and not atheism. I don't think I can say it any plainer than that FS. You seek to compare the two as though they were apples and apples. But the comparison isn't valid. They aren�t even apples and oranges. Again, there are no tenets of atheism, but there are plenty in all the religious and secular authoritarian dogmas, aren�t there? And the Abrahamic religions are by definition authoritarian, aren�t they? How can I say that? What are they based on? The belief in God. Who is this God? He is the most powerful being in the universe, the creator of everything, the ultimate authority. And there is the reason these religions are by necessity authoritarian. Their whole reason for being, is based on believing in the ultimate authority, God, and his tenets, as expressed in the holy books said to be his word. This God/religion belief is the essence of authoritarianism. Perhaps it is even the geneses of all authoritarianism.

So, anybody seen God or his boy Jesus lately? How about the prophet Mohammad, anybody seen him lately? Therein lies the rub, doesn�t it? As I said before, without a God or his clearly delegated heir/prophet around to exercise his authority, who ends up in charge? Humans, who follow what ever they want to follow, and call it the word and will of God. History clearly demonstrates that whoever can grab the reins of religious power and hold on, chasing "The Usual," of course, will end up very powerful indeed.

There is no logical way around that reality of the Abrahamic religions being controlled by an authoritarian dogma. As long as that�s the case, the potential for misuse is always going to be there. Same for the other authoritarian dogmas, Marxism and Fascism etc, that�s why I oppose them too. They are on the other side of that coin I believe, though Fascism has been on both sides from time to time.

Its not the belief in God that�s the problem really, it�s the belief in an omnipotent God who is the ultimate authority, and the logical well spring for the authoritarian dogmas that result from that belief, that are the real problem. Hopefully humanity will grow up, realize that the only being that will ever save us is the human being, and start to deal more realistically with our secular, real world problems. The more we move away from authoritarian dogma and towards more democratic forms of power, the better we will be.
The Abrahamic religions can never really move away from their authoritarian dogma, and still believe in their concept of God. For that reason we need to take the power to commit evil away from them. I believe over time humanity will do that, as has happened in Europe and other more "enlightened" parts of the world. Like the AI in the movie "The Matrix," who depend on people, the "Copper Tops" for power, so does religion. If we can wean (Unplug) enough people off the tit (Grid) of God/religion, it will fade into the dustbin of history. If we can survive the tendency of these religions to engage in 9/11 type behavior and end up destroying us all first, that is. That�s why I fear religion, not for its tenets, or its belief in a fairy tale being, but for its ability to get massive numbers of people to join in authoritarian regimes and do evil things, things against the best interests of the survival of humanity. Things like 9/11, and whatever comes next.

David

"God and religion, the oldest scam in history, and it still sucks them in today, so free your mind, and your body will follow!"

Amergin · 01-15-2003, 05:51 PM

The gods of Hinduism likely caused some people to commit murder, but I have no idea if it is in the thousands or a many as a milllion but I doubt the higher figure. We can count out the Buddhists. Aborigines in Australia and America were too sparcely populated to even raise the question. Zoroastrians were noted for their relative tolerance and I don't know of any people killed for Ahura Mazda or even Mithra.

That leaves the Abrahamic religions. Michael Earle in his tape "Bible Stories Your Parents Never Read to You" from reasonworks.com postulated that the Canaanite massacres of the nations of Palestine had civilians murdered in the millions. There are a dozen stories in the Bible's O.T. about Israelite charioteer Panzers attacking City-Kingdoms and killing all men, women, children, babies and newborns. This happens over and over. If we take the Bible as a historical record as Fundies claim it is, then untold millions died by the swords of God's followers and at his perceived command. So YHWH is a definite mass murderer.

The Christian Trinity God, though Jesus didnt't call for murder did say "I come for peace but with a sword." We know that starting with Christianity's takeover of the Roman Empire, anti-Pagan persecutions continued for several centuries until they were either converted out of fear or killed off. How many is hard to say, definitey thousands but perhaps millions. Millions were killed in the numerous religiously motivate wars of Europe, Albigensian crusade, crusades against the Pagan Prussians, Livonians, Estonians by the Teutonic Knights and Livonian Knights. Millions were killed in the 30 years war, which some consider the real First World War. There were the anti-Muslim crusades in Spain and Palestine and against the Greek Orthodox Byzantines. It finally peaks in the Nazi Holocaust in which Hitler proclaimed that "I am doing God's will in this..." (Mein Kampf).

Islam comes close but no gold trophy. Islamic armies conquered Arabia under Muhammad in a long series of bloody civil wars. They then conquered Syria, Palestine, Egypt, Tunisia, Algeria, Morocco, and Spain with millions of casualties. They attacked east and destroyed the Zoroastrian Persian Empire, and the western Turks. They advanced into India. Later they conquered India. They turned north and conquered the Armenians, Georgians, Abgasians, Caucasians. The Selkuk Muslims conquered Anatolia and Turkestan. The Ottomans conquered the Balkans and reached the walls of Vienna. Some cities like Constantinople were put to pillage, rape and massacre. Certainly millions died.

Add the millions killed by YHWH, Trinity God, and Allah I would estimate somewhere beteen a minimum of 30 million to 100 million deaths.

The only other Killer Gods worth mentioning are Lenin, Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot. They killed for the relligion of Communism and its humanoid gods (Marx, Lenin, Stalin). That may total up to 20 million.

The exact figures for all of the above are hard to find, but these are my best estimates based on my reading of history. God is not really the mass murderer. It is those who believe in God who kill people. One might paraphrase the NRA: "Guns don't kill people. People who believe in God, kill people."

Amergin
Evangelical Agnostic

Arrogancy · 01-16-2003, 05:39 AM

Wow, this is crazy. No wonder you won't respond to us, David. You're too busy repeating the same exact thing in forum to forum, copying and pasting, never listening to anyone's arguments and never responding to them with anything besides the same premanufactured replies. Now I see why no one can get you to actually debate - you can't actually do it - you can just quote the same things over and over again.

If I said anything here, it would just be repeating what was already said by myself and others here when you invaded RT with your copy/paste job: http://www.rottentomatoes.com/forum/...hreadid=195045 . No reason to repeat myself.

You're going to have to come up with something new besides this "copy paste the blind faith" that you're using.

Galan · 01-16-2003, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Amergin
The gods of Hinduism likely caused some people to commit murder, but I have no idea if it is in the thousands or a many as a milllion but I doubt the higher figure. We can count out the Buddhists. Aborigines in Australia and America were too sparcely populated to even raise the question. Zoroastrians were noted for their relative tolerance and I don't know of any people killed for Ahura Mazda or even Mithra.

That leaves the Abrahamic religions. ..

Excellent post. My problem with the Abrahamic religions has always been that the authoritarianism and intolerance, not to mention the sanction of violence as a legitimate means of defending and/or propagating the faith, comes right from their "holy books" -- i.e., it's built into them from the very start!

While I'm aware that terrible things have been done and said in the name of almost every religion there has ever been, one is hard pressed to think of many that have so much of it right in their "sacred writings," as the Abrahamic faiths do. You only have to spend a small amount of time objectively reading the Bible to see this. (Or to make things go even quicker: get a book like "Ken's Guide to the Bible," or use the great resources on this site, like the "Bible Atrocities" list).

As one counter-example, we see nothing like this in the Gathas of Zarathushtra (Zoroaster). This is also true of a number of other religions as well, and therefore they seem to me to have far more inherent merit to them (morally anyway) than any version of the Abrahamic religions.

I don't know if God is a mass murderer, or even if there is a God, but I think one can very safely say that the "God of Abraham," as described by his very own followers, is a mass murderer.

FarSeeker · 01-17-2003, 12:28 PM

The review continues:
DP, posted February 15, 2002 08:22 PM

Quote:

In the interest of saving some bandwidth, I will post a general reply to Spirit Branded (SB).

First off let me say that I don't think God is the biggest mass murder of all time, because as a myth, he/she/it is incapable of killing anyone. This of course is a defense that will be unavailable to (SB) and any other theists for obvious reasons. As a role model though, the myth of God has set a very bad example of what to do when people aren't behaving as the omnipotent one wants them to. After all as one who has unlimited power to do anything he wishes to, he saw the "Corruption" of the people and thought, "what should I do?

FS: God is not acting as an "example" in the cases you mention any more than the government does when it executes a criminal. Jesus is the one who sets our example.

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Hell of an example he set in your holy book SB. Of course later you appear to pick and chose which examples are true, and which are not in your argument here. How convenient for you.

As for the Muslim world denouncing Bin Laden and his ilk for their terrorism, sure they say that, what else can they say? But Islam is diametrically opposed to western thought, its religious beliefs and way of life. Like all religions it thinks "God" is on their side against the forces of the infidels, like us infidels here for instance. You see it one way SB, I see it another and I think logic is on my side in this view. As for the legitimacy of Bin Laden, Millions of Muslims support what he is doing, and that is part of the point of this little intellectual exercise. If you have enough support you can fight for your cause, right or wrong, forever. Let me give you a little personal view of what that kind of support can mean. As a marine in Vietnam I learned a lesson about what a small widespread base of support can mean to a diehard fanatical foe. If we had chosen to fight that war to its conclusion, we would still be there. (And no, I don't think what we were doing there was justified now, but I did at the time.) If 10% of the population supports such activity as terrorism, the terrorists can fight forever, and as they gain the weapons of mass destruction they will use them. About that, the mass destruction and murder of innocents during the terrorist attacks of 9/11 should remove all doubts.

FS: "Of those around at the moment, Islam is the only one that has any appeal to me." Arthur C. Clarke, noted Atheist.

But let us put it another way:
As for the Atheists denouncing Marxists and their ilk for their evil, sure they say that, what else can they say? But Atheism is diametrically opposed to western thought, its religious beliefs and way of life. Like fascists, they think "reason" is on their side against the forces of infidels like us Chirstians. You see it one way DP; I see it another and I think honest logic and history are on my side in this view. As for the legitimacy of Marx, Millions of Atheists support his logic, and that is part of the point of this little intellectual exercise.

For your view to be right, DP, you would have to prove it is right, and Marxism is wrong. You haven't; you've simply made the unsupported assertion that you are right.

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I think Pandora, Jack, TQM, phlebas and ex-preacher have answered many of your other points quite well, so no need for me to reiterate them here. As to my being an agnostic who doesn't believe in your Abrahamic "God" I am guilty as charged, though I did conceive of a "God" here, but it wasn't your "God" that's for sure. I like the way you gloss over the idea that if the great flood was true, the fact remains that the innocent babies and children, who were with out sin, were murdered anyway by your Just and merciful "God". Quite an example he set, and it's an example some of his followers in religion follow to this day. Oh that's right, you only believe the part of the bible you want to believe in, or are convenient for you to believe in, right? By the way there are plenty of people in all three religions who still swallow the teachings in the Bible, Qur'an and Talmud hook line and sinker. These people are the ones who provide a fertile breeding ground for the religious terrorists of today and tomorrow, and that is the great threat that religion presents us with, never ending war, leading to Armageddon or the Apocalypse. Take your pick here.

FS: Quite an example Atheists have set, and it's an example some of them follow to this day. Or haven't you been listening to Atheists on this site?
WOW, Christians are a threat!

Man is political animal, and war is a continuation of politics by other means, ergo: man is violent. Therefore war comes from man, not religion. Your vain attempts at whitewash give you away.

And I suggest you actually read the Bible for once� Armageddon is brought about by those who REJECT God, after they MARGINALIZE and execute believers.

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Lets cover a couple of other points and I can wrap up this post and wait for your intellectually scintillating reply. When I referred to "God" not directly involving himself in straightening out those that sin in his name, I mean directly, as in person. Just because one hears voices in his head telling him what to do doesn't mean God is speaking to them, does it?
As for your last point, you know something, I think that the Bible Qur'an and Talmud all have some fine teachings in them. It's the evil stuff also within that will bring humanity down. That said here is something for you to ponder. Who wrote these books? Man did. So for those who follow the good teachings found within these books, what are they following? They're following the teachings of their fellow humans, not the teachings of some mythical being called "God".

FS: I don't really know why God doesn't act directly, in a "lightning strike" method, but simply because you don't understand something it doesn't mean it has no solution/answer (ie. QM). I have wondered if it might be because God wants us to see what happens when we don't obey Him. It would be like allowing your children to suffer the consequences of their actions so as to avoid them in the future. If you ever actually read the Bible, you will know the parable about the prodigal son. The son was allowed to suffer the effects of his choices. Or maybe God doesn't interfere because "vous" don't want Him to. Maybe it's because people like you have demanded He stop looking over your shoulder and trying to help you.

You claim that "these books" were written by evil men (how else could they put all those "evil acts" into them), then, how and why would they put anything good into those books that they couldn't profit from?

However, you presupposition is unsupported there. What you are claiming is that secretaries really write all business documents. If that were true, then businesses could save millions by firing their CEO's and relying on their dictation secretaries.

David M. Payne · 01-18-2003, 12:34 AM

FS said the usual, bla, bla, bla, the same old atheists are the same as commies crap. Pretty weak dude, the Abrahamic religions don't equal atheism in power, they are much more powerful than any atheist organizations I know of.

I notice you studiously avoid the new point I brought up above about the religious authoritarian dogma "tar baby" that looks pretty stuck on you theists here. Here is a link here,
to a new thread I started on it, you may find it amusing.

David

"God and religion, the oldest scam in history, and it still sucks them in today, so free your mind, and your body will follow!"

FarSeeker · 01-21-2003, 12:49 PM

DP, posted April 24, 2002 09:26 PM

Quote:

Luv, what has changed in the equation in the Middle East? People, specifically way too many people trying to occupy too little fertile land. Why is this? Religion, specifically Islamic religions opposition to birth control. If you study history a little, you will find that one of the surest ways to defeat your enemy is to out breed him. Overwhelm him with a flood of your tribe, race etc. The Jews have followed the rational of population control and the Palestinians haven't. The result is millions more Palestinians now then when they lost the wars of 48 and 67. You seem to ignore this fact, why is that? [B] Is it because religion is so clearly involved in the overpopulation problem there, as well as in the rest of the world?[B]

FS: Please study the recent history of the Middle East (ca. 20th Century). The population growth in the area of Israel seems not to have occured before the Jews began to return, and was not cause by reproduction, but by emigration of Arabs to the economic growth created by the Jews (caveat: according to the info I have). But then, you have been including the Jews as �those evil religionist� in these little tirades of yours, so using them as a good example is kind of abnormal here.

And there is another example of DP's clearly hating Jews and Christians. It might even valid to equate his hatred of them to that expressed by Nazis toward Jews (the Marxists tend to take a more skilled approach towards these religions by not being so blatant). For ANYONE cognizant of the overpopulation problem, it is known that better diet and health-care increasing the survival rate and the economics of child labor in third-world countries cause the problems. Over population exists in most places because children are (or still seen as) units of production instead of units of consumption as in �The West.� Parents want to live better: more children help increase their income. On the other hand what evidence do you have that �religion is so clearly involved in the overpopulation problem there, as well as in the rest of the world?� That is unless you mean Christians and Jews are improving their health with our medical science!

Actually, the history I have read dictates the surest way to beat your enemy is to out think him: in guts, war, economy, or technology. See �Condemned to Repeat It,� by Allison, Adams and Hambly, Pub. Viking. How many time in history has a numerically superior force been beaten by a better skilled smaller force? Numerous times!

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�
As for your other assertion, yes I understand how the Palestinians feel, but the Jews were driven out of this area a long time ago, weren't they? You seem to ignore this little fact of history, why is that? You also ignore that Yasser Arafat had had 90% of what he wanted in his negotiations with Barak, and he turned it down, because he wanted it all. So there is greed, on the Palestinian side. Hopefully there will be a settlement that gives the Palestinians a homeland and peace in the area. I think the chances are slim though, as long as the religious differences serve to divide the two sides.

FS: Are Arafat's actions the results of his religious beliefs, or his personal and political greed. Recently it was reported that a large amount of money given to the Palestinian government as economic aid ended up in his personal bank account.

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[This is [DP's own] quote below;
"In fact these two resemble the authoritarian structure of religion pretty closely. Ie, Marx/Hitler are the wellspring of all truth etc, and all wisdom can be found in their good books. Looks like religion, without the space God."
�
The fable of Noah is just one of the fables that show just how brutal and murderous this God of yours is. To me it is the most critical fable in the bible. He murders everyone including the babies and little children who were without sin, and is worshiped for this act of genocide? To me it's just like the fascists and communists who worshiped their gods, Hitler and Stalin, its stupid behavior, which has no basis in rational thought. It's time to recognize these fairy tales for what they are and evolve past this point in our development as a species.

FS: Your portrayal of the Bible as authoritarian is a distortion of reality: your own personal �Twilight Zone.� The existence of an Authority does not dictate authoritarian structure; see the works of Locke, Thomas Jefferson, and other Founding and early Americans as well as science. God asks man to make the choice to follow Him. The violence in the Bible you talk about is in response to great evil committed. Do you condemn Christians for the violence of WW2, the Korean War or the Gulf War? When sufficient evil is committed God acts either directly or thru His people. In the Bible, it is only after great evil is committed that severe punishment is applied. Other unjustifiable violence mentioned on this thread happened in spite of the Bible, not because of it. And I think an honest review of history will reveal more good coming from the Bible than bad.

You twist thing around skillfully DP. The Marxists used Marx's teachings as a BASIS for their reasoning. They did not apply those ideas unchanged or unquestioned. You point is false. Your problem, DP, is that you think that you have all the right answers, and all reasonable people will eventually agree with your opinions. That simply isn't true. Marxism, Dr. Singer, Abortionists and history has shown that to be patently false. No one on this thread has yet been able to provide any convincing reason that Dr. Singer is wrong or even unreasonable. (Thomas, your arguments on this point are absurd and irrelevant.)

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So if we can eliminate religion, we can eliminate one source of conflict, the one source that has been constant for the entire history of humanity. How do you eliminate religion? Just keep pointing out the obvious fallacies inherent in its makeup, Like this one at the head of this thread, and sooner or later, (Obviously much later) it will fall based on its own intellectual emptiness."
�
Nice speech luv, but the goal isn't to eliminate everyone from believing in the fairy tales that are God and religion. The goal is using the power of logic, reason and positive persuasion to marginalize these people to the fringes of humanity. In other words, when religion is just another quirky little sideshow that small numbers of people believe in, the goal will be met. Then we can work on the other problems that you and others point out. This is happening in Europe and other parts of the world right now. The numbers of people who believe in religion in these places is steadily shrinking. Time and logic will overcome fear and superstition in time, I believe. If you read my essay, you know that I do think the economic, political and overpopulation problems can be dealt with, if we can get the strangle hold of religion from around our collective necks. None of it will be easy, but life isn't easy anyway, we just have to keep our eye on the prize and find a way to get to it. That is what this site is doing, holding up a mirror to show the fanatics just how ugly and dangerous they and their behavior is. We open up a lot of eyes here, offer logical alternatives to God, religion, and oppressive authoritarian regimes. And these sites are growing.

FarSeeker:
That first statement is interesting. By tour thinking, man evolved first, then somehow religion was developed. So there must have been some time that religion was not the source of conflict. While this proves the fallacy of your first sentence, it also opens an interesting line of thought. What would that time have been like, and why did man develop religion?

This condemnation of Christianity is interesting when compared to your disagreement with Marxism. You blithely skip over the threat of Marxism in your opening post. Why is this? Is it because you know that if you included Marxism in your demand for marginalization it would reveal that what you are demanding is called McCarthyism (Or Jim Crow)? DP, with his call for the marginalization of Christians, is headed down the �ugly and dangerous� path just about every tin-pot dictator before him has taken.

Look at DP's statements again, why doesn't DP call for the �maginalization� of Marxists? Why doesn't he call for the �marginalization� of Dr. singer and his ilk? Because they too are Atheists, and to condemn them as dangerous could lead to the conclusion that skepticism and rationalism are not sufficient to a establish and maintain a system of morals. Then, again, why not marginalize Shinto followers (Remember Pearl Harbor?); that would be justifiable with DP thinking!

The vain and ultimately failed attempt by Atheists to place the blame for the totalitarianism of Atheist controlled countries to the �dogmatism� of Marxism does not hold up under close and honest scrutiny** DP wants us to ignore those non-Marxist Atheists on this forum who are threatening theists in the name of rationalism by holding ideas that are congruent with Marxist (ignore the man behind the curtain, FOR I AM THE GREAT AND WONDERFUL Payne!). They start with Atheism and rationally conclude the same things that Marxists did. One demands that Christians be declared insane. Another called for the outlawing of Christianity. Some on this thread call for the removal of Christians from the political arena in America.

** The claim that Marxist totalitarianism is caused only by its dogmatic politics fails because:
A�.There have been communist Christian sects without the mass murder that Atheist Communists have committed.
B�.There has been a non-Marxist Atheist government that committed mass-murder.
C�.Marx sought to alleviate the suffering of �the workers,� not create the murderous, totalitarian government it did, therefore the cause was not directly the ideology.
D�.No Marxist country has ever put Marxism into practice without changing many facets of Marxist doctrine, so they haven't been sufficiently dogmatic about Marxists doctrine to cause the reported acts.

��the only service that can be rendered to God today is to declare atheism a compulsory article of faith and �[to prohibit] religion generally.� �Marx and Engles on Religion,� Reinhold Niebuhr, ed.

You can claim that the Marxists attack Christians because they are seen as a threat. But that claim does not stand up to scrutiny. Stalin joked about how little threat there was; when someone asked him about that threat, he asked how many armies the Pope had. Clearly not the words of someone who felt threatened. In China, the Christian churches (all denominations) make up only about 6% of the population (out-numbered by all others except Muslims). But DP's argument falls even further from reality with the report of journalist Nicholas Kristof that: �The first lie is the reference to China's Communists, who are not Communists in any meaningful sense.� We find that the government is losing the Marxism philosophy and relying on Atheism: �In 1991, the government issued Document 6, which called for a crack down against unregistered religious groups and reaffirmed its goal of creating a 'materialistic,' 'scientific,' and atheistic society.� �Religious Freedom in the World,� ed. Paul Marshall

Atheists should try to view history through less hate-filled eyes. The history of Christianity has been less than spotless, but it is also unique in the world for the good it has done. Let us look at some of the bigoted lies I have found on this forum from Atheists:

> Christians were responsible for the fall of the Roman Empire and the �dark ages�.
Look again, the Western part fell to the invading barbarians (how many tribes were there? I know of five, and there are likely more). Yet while the Western part fell into the �dark ages,� the Eastern side, just as Christian if not more so, remained stable for nearly a millenium longer.

> Christians are responsible for the dark ages and the ignorance flourished at that time.
BZZZ, wrong, try again. Monasteries actually preserved many ancient manuscripts that help Europe recover during the renaissance (see books by James Burke, ie. �Connections�). Despite the interference by the Catholic Church, science and technology (from my studies) made more advancement in Europe from 1200 to 1700 than it did in the more advance societies in Muslim, Indus and Chinese lands during the same period. And I dare add that they didn't catch up until after WW2 (ca. 1945). The problem during the medieval times was that when you are simply trying to survive barbarian invasions without a government, life (nasty, brutish and short as it was) didn't leave you a lot of time to study.

> Christianity is a despotic religion.
All the advances in freedom that we enjoy came from Europe (ie. The Magna Carta, The Declaration of Independence, etc.), despite the death grip you claim Christianity had over Europe. No other culture developed such freedoms before Europe spread it. There were great philosophers in each of the other great cultures of earth, yet no parallel of Christian based freedoms developed in them. Thomas Metcalf said: �I don't think we need to cite Christianity for the birth of the United States. Far more important was a simple desire for freedom, especially given the anti-Christianity beliefs of many of our 'founding fathers.'� Which is essentially a racist statement because it requires that you accept that every ethnic group EXCEPT European/Caucasians did NOT desire in freedom!

To the best of my knowledge none of the Founding Fathers of the U.S. ever quote any documents from outside of Europe (unless you count Roman as outside), and very few documents without Christian influence. In fact, reportedly, the MOST quoted was the Bible.

Again, you haven't proven even one baby was killed in the Flood! That argument is dead, drop it and go on to something else. If this is your most critical point, you've failed.

I guess you will agree with:

Quote:

The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death. A slow death has something comforting about it. The dogma of Christianity gets worn away before the advances of science. Religion will have to make more and more concessions. Gradually the myths crumble. All that's left is to prove that in nature there is no frontier between the organic and the inorganic. When understanding of the universe has become widespread, when the majority of men know that the stars are not sources of light but worlds, perhaps inhabited worlds like ours, then the Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.
A. Hitler

�I don't mean to rub it in, but Moooo��(apologies to Dogbert)

Yes, Christian and other religions have experienced the �power of logic, reason and positive persuasion� as used by Atheists. It often involves political, economic, mental and physical abuse. In other owrds, your position is very supportive of facism.

David M. Payne · 01-21-2003, 03:39 PM

FS said the usual crap. Read what he says, read what other posters have said on this thread and draw your own conclusions folks.

Quote:

Again, you haven't proven even one baby was killed in the Flood! That argument is dead, drop it and go on to something else. If this is your most critical point, you've failed�

And you have yet to show us that your God even exists, which is the real point of this thread, and this site for that matter. To say that the bible is correct on Noah and the great flood, and yet there were no children alive at the time is absurd, as are your other arguments here FS. The Abrahamic religions are dependent upon the existence of their God, the ultimate authority, for their existence. In belief, action and dogma they are all authoritarian, and you can dance around that all you want to. It won't change reality, the reality of Abrahamic authoritarian religious dogma. It's your tar baby dude, and it looks good on you!

Quote:

The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death. A slow death has something comforting about it. The dogma of Christianity gets worn away before the advances of science. Religion will have to make more and more concessions. Gradually the myths crumble. All that's left is to prove that in nature there is no frontier between the organic and the inorganic. When understanding of the universe has become widespread, when the majority of men know that the stars are not sources of light but worlds, perhaps inhabited worlds like ours, then the Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.
A. Hitler

Here you prove that even a blind pig (Hitler) can find an acorn once and a while. Even the most evil of people have their moments of rational thought. If this is indeed a quote of his, than he said one thing I agree with. So what?

Quote:

Yes, Christian and other religions have experienced the �power of logic, reason and positive persuasion� as used by Atheists. It often involves political, economic, mental and physical abuse. In other words, your position is very supportive of fascism.

Going for the big lie, FS? The mark of those who have failed in the use of reason to convince their opponents of the correctness of their opinions. To accuse me of being like you, a follower and supporter of authoritarian dogmatic beliefs is a lie. Period.

David

"God and religion, the oldest scam in history, and it still sucks them in today, so free your mind, and your body will follow!"

Amergin · 01-21-2003, 07:36 PM

Galan:

"I don't know if God is a mass murderer, or even if there is a God, but I think one can very safely say that the "God of Abraham," as described by his very own followers, is a mass murderer."

Excellent observation that summarised this issue. God is the greatest mass murderer, being accused by his own believers/worshippers. Judaeo-Islamic-Christians are God's most devastating accusers. We agnostics and our Atheist mates can't come close.

Amergin

01-15-2003, 12:30 AM	#312
David M. Payne Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: The land of chain smoking, bible thumping, holy ro Posts: 1,248	Back to you FS. Amusing FS, but beside the point as usual. We all repeat ourselves responding to you, and the problems of God/religion. After all that�s what this site is about in great part, the problems of God/religion, and what to do about them, among other things. So I don't think I misinterpret things at all, but that�s what makes it a debate, isn't it? Your whole post here assumes one thing, (correct me if I'm wrong) that atheism and God/religion are on different sides of the same coin, rivals for power. As rivals they have had the same will to power and have used it for good, or evil, right? They aren�t rivals for power FS, nor are they any kind of equals, they are two different things. One thing, Abrahamic religion, is an authoritarian dogma and is immensely powerful. The other thing, atheism, is the non-belief in God, and it is not powerful at all. That doesn�t mean some atheists aren�t powerful, but I'll get to that later. The Abrahamic Religions are active authoritarian religious movements that seek to have their will imposed on everyone, "willingly" or otherwise. In addition they are in conflict with each other, as is plainly visible to even a casual observer of history or current world events. And this conflict has no end that I can see, for they all believe they have the true path to God and salvation, and the others are false paths, and are led by false prophets. (See The Story of Bob, for a much longer, more in depth and more amusing look at this argument here.) And they excuse the act of genocide etc that your God was fabled to have done in the great flood as "necessary," or "justified." You can peddle that "Gods ends justify his means" BS belief all you want FS, I'm not buying into it. It's the same rationalization that the Marxist and Fascists use. I wonder where they got it? Atheism is just the non-belief in God, there is no other dogma that atheists follow that flows out of atheism. Period. (And I'm not an atheist, but I might play one in my next story. ) Some atheists are also followers of other kinds of authoritarian dogma, such as Marxism or Fascism, which resemble religious dogma in how they operate, but that is what they follow, authoritarian dogma, not the tenets of atheism. There aren't any tenets of atheism, it is simply the non-belief in a God. I also condemn all the other forms of authoritarian dogma, secular or religious. So again, the evil done by some people who were atheists flowed out of their own authoritarian beliefs, Marxism, Fascism etc, and not atheism. I don't think I can say it any plainer than that FS. You seek to compare the two as though they were apples and apples. But the comparison isn't valid. They aren�t even apples and oranges. Again, there are no tenets of atheism, but there are plenty in all the religious and secular authoritarian dogmas, aren�t there? And the Abrahamic religions are by definition authoritarian, aren�t they? How can I say that? What are they based on? The belief in God. Who is this God? He is the most powerful being in the universe, the creator of everything, the ultimate authority. And there is the reason these religions are by necessity authoritarian. Their whole reason for being, is based on believing in the ultimate authority, God, and his tenets, as expressed in the holy books said to be his word. This God/religion belief is the essence of authoritarianism. Perhaps it is even the geneses of all authoritarianism. So, anybody seen God or his boy Jesus lately? How about the prophet Mohammad, anybody seen him lately? Therein lies the rub, doesn�t it? As I said before, without a God or his clearly delegated heir/prophet around to exercise his authority, who ends up in charge? Humans, who follow what ever they want to follow, and call it the word and will of God. History clearly demonstrates that whoever can grab the reins of religious power and hold on, chasing "The Usual," of course, will end up very powerful indeed. There is no logical way around that reality of the Abrahamic religions being controlled by an authoritarian dogma. As long as that�s the case, the potential for misuse is always going to be there. Same for the other authoritarian dogmas, Marxism and Fascism etc, that�s why I oppose them too. They are on the other side of that coin I believe, though Fascism has been on both sides from time to time. Its not the belief in God that�s the problem really, it�s the belief in an omnipotent God who is the ultimate authority, and the logical well spring for the authoritarian dogmas that result from that belief, that are the real problem. Hopefully humanity will grow up, realize that the only being that will ever save us is the human being, and start to deal more realistically with our secular, real world problems. The more we move away from authoritarian dogma and towards more democratic forms of power, the better we will be. The Abrahamic religions can never really move away from their authoritarian dogma, and still believe in their concept of God. For that reason we need to take the power to commit evil away from them. I believe over time humanity will do that, as has happened in Europe and other more "enlightened" parts of the world. Like the AI in the movie "The Matrix," who depend on people, the "Copper Tops" for power, so does religion. If we can wean (Unplug) enough people off the tit (Grid) of God/religion, it will fade into the dustbin of history. If we can survive the tendency of these religions to engage in 9/11 type behavior and end up destroying us all first, that is. That�s why I fear religion, not for its tenets, or its belief in a fairy tale being, but for its ability to get massive numbers of people to join in authoritarian regimes and do evil things, things against the best interests of the survival of humanity. Things like 9/11, and whatever comes next. David "God and religion, the oldest scam in history, and it still sucks them in today, so free your mind, and your body will follow!"

01-15-2003, 05:51 PM	#313
Amergin Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Tir na nOg Posts: 37	Millions murdered in the name of God. The gods of Hinduism likely caused some people to commit murder, but I have no idea if it is in the thousands or a many as a milllion but I doubt the higher figure. We can count out the Buddhists. Aborigines in Australia and America were too sparcely populated to even raise the question. Zoroastrians were noted for their relative tolerance and I don't know of any people killed for Ahura Mazda or even Mithra. That leaves the Abrahamic religions. Michael Earle in his tape "Bible Stories Your Parents Never Read to You" from reasonworks.com postulated that the Canaanite massacres of the nations of Palestine had civilians murdered in the millions. There are a dozen stories in the Bible's O.T. about Israelite charioteer Panzers attacking City-Kingdoms and killing all men, women, children, babies and newborns. This happens over and over. If we take the Bible as a historical record as Fundies claim it is, then untold millions died by the swords of God's followers and at his perceived command. So YHWH is a definite mass murderer. The Christian Trinity God, though Jesus didnt't call for murder did say "I come for peace but with a sword." We know that starting with Christianity's takeover of the Roman Empire, anti-Pagan persecutions continued for several centuries until they were either converted out of fear or killed off. How many is hard to say, definitey thousands but perhaps millions. Millions were killed in the numerous religiously motivate wars of Europe, Albigensian crusade, crusades against the Pagan Prussians, Livonians, Estonians by the Teutonic Knights and Livonian Knights. Millions were killed in the 30 years war, which some consider the real First World War. There were the anti-Muslim crusades in Spain and Palestine and against the Greek Orthodox Byzantines. It finally peaks in the Nazi Holocaust in which Hitler proclaimed that "I am doing God's will in this..." (Mein Kampf). Islam comes close but no gold trophy. Islamic armies conquered Arabia under Muhammad in a long series of bloody civil wars. They then conquered Syria, Palestine, Egypt, Tunisia, Algeria, Morocco, and Spain with millions of casualties. They attacked east and destroyed the Zoroastrian Persian Empire, and the western Turks. They advanced into India. Later they conquered India. They turned north and conquered the Armenians, Georgians, Abgasians, Caucasians. The Selkuk Muslims conquered Anatolia and Turkestan. The Ottomans conquered the Balkans and reached the walls of Vienna. Some cities like Constantinople were put to pillage, rape and massacre. Certainly millions died. Add the millions killed by YHWH, Trinity God, and Allah I would estimate somewhere beteen a minimum of 30 million to 100 million deaths. The only other Killer Gods worth mentioning are Lenin, Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot. They killed for the relligion of Communism and its humanoid gods (Marx, Lenin, Stalin). That may total up to 20 million. The exact figures for all of the above are hard to find, but these are my best estimates based on my reading of history. God is not really the mass murderer. It is those who believe in God who kill people. One might paraphrase the NRA: "Guns don't kill people. People who believe in God, kill people." Amergin Evangelical Agnostic

01-21-2003, 07:36 PM	#320
Amergin Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Tir na nOg Posts: 37	That is spot on. Galan: "I don't know if God is a mass murderer, or even if there is a God, but I think one can very safely say that the "God of Abraham," as described by his very own followers, is a mass murderer." Excellent observation that summarised this issue. God is the greatest mass murderer, being accused by his own believers/worshippers. Judaeo-Islamic-Christians are God's most devastating accusers. We agnostics and our Atheist mates can't come close. Amergin

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01-16-2003, 05:39 AM	#314
Arrogancy Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: MI Posts: 43	Wow, this is crazy. No wonder you won't respond to us, David. You're too busy repeating the same exact thing in forum to forum, copying and pasting, never listening to anyone's arguments and never responding to them with anything besides the same premanufactured replies. Now I see why no one can get you to actually debate - you can't actually do it - you can just quote the same things over and over again. If I said anything here, it would just be repeating what was already said by myself and others here when you invaded RT with your copy/paste job: http://www.rottentomatoes.com/forum/...hreadid=195045 . No reason to repeat myself. You're going to have to come up with something new besides this "copy paste the blind faith" that you're using.

01-18-2003, 12:34 AM	#317
David M. Payne Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: The land of chain smoking, bible thumping, holy ro Posts: 1,248	FS said the usual, bla, bla, bla, the same old atheists are the same as commies crap. Pretty weak dude, the Abrahamic religions don't equal atheism in power, they are much more powerful than any atheist organizations I know of. I notice you studiously avoid the new point I brought up above about the religious authoritarian dogma "tar baby" that looks pretty stuck on you theists here. Here is a link here, to a new thread I started on it, you may find it amusing. David "God and religion, the oldest scam in history, and it still sucks them in today, so free your mind, and your body will follow!"

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