Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Hedwig · 06-26-2002, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by crazyfingers:
I'd like to suggest that those of us who post on xians boards might want to get on over there and defend this ruling.

I have been on my end. Some are actually being quite even-handed about this. Once they get over their knee-jerk reactions to this.

sandlewood · 06-26-2002, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TPaine:
Honestly, if one is an atheist why can't they just not say the pledge.

Because having those words in the pledge amounts to a government sanction of a particular religion, which is unconstitutional. A state-employed teacher in a state-run school should not be leading such a pledge. Students will still end up standing there listening to everyone else recite it and they will feel left out, as if they are not really part of the country don't have an allegience to the country.

Darwin's Finch · 06-26-2002, 01:23 PM

TPaine: True, the SC ruled that one is not compelled to recite the Pledge, but that's not really the point. Why shouldn't my son be able to pledge his allegiance to his country and those principles of unity, indivisibility, liberty and justice without feeling the need to remain silent during the "under God" part? Seriously, any way you cut it, the addition of those words constitutes government sponsership of monotheistic faith. Is my son to be made to feel somehow less patriotic because he wasn't raised to believe in the great Sky Daddy? Where is the justice in that?

Philosoft · 06-26-2002, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TPaine:
Honestly, if one is an atheist why can't they just not say the pledge. It's already been established that one cannot be forced to say the pledge so who cares? It seems atheists get offended because people believe in god and religious people get offended that people don't believe in god. If you hear the pledge said in a school how is this forcing religion on you? You don't have to say it. Now I'm sure I'll get flamed for this and be labelled a fundie. I assure you I'm not a fundie of any kind and I'm not christian. Hell, I'm not even religious but I'm not so militantly anti-religion that I can't stand when people profess their belief.

It is demonstrably not merely "people profess[ing] their belief." It is the very words the government specified shall be accessible to and representative of all citizens in their individual desires to show their loyalty.

Stephen Maturin · 06-26-2002, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Darwin's Finch:
 I need to know exactly what Congress did in 1954. Was it a statute? Some kind of resolution? Please help out.

They amended an existing statute. Here's the 9th Circuit's recitation the statute's history:

Quote:

On June 22, 1942, Congress first codified the Pledge as �I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.� Pub. L. No. 623, Ch. 435, � 7, 56 Stat. 380 (1942) (codified at 36 U.S.C. � 1972). On June 14, 1954, Congress amended Section 1972 to add the words �under God� after the word �Nation.� Pub. L. No. 396, Ch. 297, 68 Stat. 249 (1954) (�1954 Act�). The Pledge is currently codified as �I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.� 4 U.S.C. � 4 (1998) (Title 36 was revised and recodified by Pub. L. No. 105-225, � 2(a), 112 Stat. 1494 (1998). Section 172 was abolished, and the Pledge is now found in Title 4.)

Anunnaki · 06-26-2002, 01:28 PM

Did anyone else just see our congress standing out on the steps saying the pledge in defiance of the CA judge?

I`ve also had the news on all day since the story broke and NOBODY has had anything intelligent to say about this. Every one of the news anchors as well as all guests and callers are totally outraged over this.

I really am marooned in monkeyland. :

[ June 26, 2002: Message edited by: Anunnaki ]

The Dionysian · 06-26-2002, 01:30 PM

"Why shouldn't my son be able to pledge his allegiance to his country and those principles of unity, indivisibility, liberty and justice without feeling the need to remain silent during the "under God" part?"

Why can't non-religious people understand that some people are religious? I'm not religious and I have no problem with hearing people profess their belief which is barely expressed by saying the pledge of allegaince. What was it Thomas Jefferson said "It does me no injury for my neighbor to say that there are 20 gods or no gods. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg"

[ June 26, 2002: Message edited by: TPaine ]

The Dionysian · 06-26-2002, 01:33 PM

"Students will still end up standing there listening to everyone else recite it and they will feel left out, as if they are not really part of the country don't have an allegience to the country."

I'd like to speak to atheist or non-religious students to get their take on this to see if they feel left out or are offended.

The Dionysian · 06-26-2002, 01:36 PM

"Christians do not deserve special rights."

Well I don't think anybody deserves special rights but how does being able to say the pledge constitute "special rights"?

Philosoft · 06-26-2002, 01:36 PM

TPaine,

Quit picking and choosing your semantic battles. This is not strictly about how children feel. Please respond to the argument that the 'God clause' is unconstitutional.

06-26-2002, 01:28 PM	#156
Anunnaki Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: I`ve left and gone away Posts: 699	Did anyone else just see our congress standing out on the steps saying the pledge in defiance of the CA judge? I`ve also had the news on all day since the story broke and NOBODY has had anything intelligent to say about this. Every one of the news anchors as well as all guests and callers are totally outraged over this. I really am marooned in monkeyland. : [ June 26, 2002: Message edited by: Anunnaki ]</p>

06-26-2002, 01:30 PM	#157
The Dionysian Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: who knows Posts: 154	"Why shouldn't my son be able to pledge his allegiance to his country and those principles of unity, indivisibility, liberty and justice without feeling the need to remain silent during the "under God" part?" Why can't non-religious people understand that some people are religious? I'm not religious and I have no problem with hearing people profess their belief which is barely expressed by saying the pledge of allegaince. What was it Thomas Jefferson said "It does me no injury for my neighbor to say that there are 20 gods or no gods. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg" [ June 26, 2002: Message edited by: TPaine ]</p>

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06-26-2002, 01:23 PM	#153
Darwin's Finch Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Gardnerville, NV Posts: 666	TPaine: True, the SC ruled that one is not compelled to recite the Pledge, but that's not really the point. Why shouldn't my son be able to pledge his allegiance to his country and those principles of unity, indivisibility, liberty and justice without feeling the need to remain silent during the "under God" part? Seriously, any way you cut it, the addition of those words constitutes government sponsership of monotheistic faith. Is my son to be made to feel somehow less patriotic because he wasn't raised to believe in the great Sky Daddy? Where is the justice in that?

06-26-2002, 01:33 PM	#158
The Dionysian Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: who knows Posts: 154	"Students will still end up standing there listening to everyone else recite it and they will feel left out, as if they are not really part of the country don't have an allegience to the country." I'd like to speak to atheist or non-religious students to get their take on this to see if they feel left out or are offended.

06-26-2002, 01:36 PM	#159
The Dionysian Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: who knows Posts: 154	"Christians do not deserve special rights." Well I don't think anybody deserves special rights but how does being able to say the pledge constitute "special rights"?

06-26-2002, 01:36 PM	#160
Philosoft Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Southeast of disorder Posts: 6,829	TPaine, Quit picking and choosing your semantic battles. This is not strictly about how children feel. Please respond to the argument that the 'God clause' is unconstitutional.

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