StrictSeparationist

OK, now for the opinion on Pledge laws. There are several layers of this issue.

The simplest is the issue of parental notice - looks like we all agree it is unacceptable. There is hardly any doubt that it is unconstitutional under the Supreme Court precedent.

Next is what happens if this requirement is erased. Then, as we agreed, we have a 'plain vanilla' Pledge law. It is bad at least because it is still coercive and involves state endorsement of religion. I don't want to repeat the arguments from the threads about Newdow and Sherman cases. As I recall, StrictSeparationist and I agree on the constitutional issues involved, or at least on most of them.

As for the constitutionality of such vanilla Pledge laws, while most of us here (including me) would consider them unconstitutional, they are currently considered constitutional everywhere outside the 9th Circuit (CO is in the 10th), and I don't know anyone who thinks it likely that the SC will grant certiorari to Newdow and affirm the 9th Circuit's decision (let alone go further and reverse it on the issue raised in Newdow's cross-petition, invalidating the federal law that added the words 'under God' to the Pledge). So the hope for defeating the Colorado law in court is slim at best.

Just to make my own views quite clear: I also feel it's unlikely that Supreme Court will adopt Newdow's argument this year. However, I do believe that the fact that a Circuit Court of the United States has adopted it makes it seem far more likely that that view will become the law of the land in our lifetimes.

(snip)

I think it is a lousy policy and would vote against it.

I understand, and support in general, the state's interest in fostering the ideals of good citizenship and civic duty. Our society could not function if the majority of us weren't committed to its basic ideals well beyond our short-term individual interests. But there are myriads of better ways to advance this interest than pledging loyalty to anything, and particularly in such a mindless fashion as it is done in schools.

When I was a pupil in communist Yugoslavia, for some time we ended each school day with a similar, but shorther and less solemn, pledge of loyalty to Tito and homeland. Then the routine was dropped; I guess it was just too stupid and ridiculous to catch on. Well, I don't want my children to be exposed to more brainwashing in the 'free' world than I was in a 'totalitarian' state.

I'll always vote against every brainwashing ritual, even if it facially supports values I fully subscribe to.

Although I personally support the values that my hypothetical Pledge articulates, I think that you're right in that there are much better ways to teach those values to students than by brainwashing them. Education, not mindless ritual, is the best answer. Though I might feel personal distaste for Pledge recitation, I believe that in a strictly legal sense it's acceptable for the reasons stated in my last post.

dirkduck

Well I just got back from day 1 of school today. Anyways, on the accouncements (between 1st and 2nd period), the Principal came on and told everyone about the law (most of the kids in my class had no idea there was the new law, most of them supporting it). Anyways, after he explained the law ("we need parent notes in a week for you to opt-out"), he led everyone in the pledge over the intercom. I personally stood up, but didn't recite. The teacher for our class didn't seem to mind (if he noticed me...), although tomorrow we have our second block of classes, so that 2nd block teacher may be a little 'patriotic' about it, who knows. Anyways, I've got no intention of having a 'parental exemption', so I'll just have to wait and see weather they care if I never recite the pledge.

StrictSeparationist

If anything does happen tomorrow or at any time in the future, please post in this forum and let us know. I'm sure that there are plenty of people here who can give you excellent advice as to how to handle this. Here's my two cents as to what you should do if/when the situation arises (where you go from there is another matter entirely, but if you want to leave your options open, you have to deal with the incident itself in an appropriate way).

1. If you're called on it in class, explain your reasons for not saying the Pledge. Keep it short if possible. A simple "I don't agree with certain principles that the Pledge stands for" is probably adequate, but if you want to go into specifics, that's fine too.

2. If your teacher doesn't pursue it, obviously you shouldn't either. If s/he sends you to a school administrator, explain to that person why you won't recite it as well. If the administrator demands that you get a parental waiver, tell them that you don't believe that you should be forced to inform your parents that you prefer not to say the Pledge, and that you believe that school shouldn't try to force you to participate in a patriotic exercise.

3. It's quite possible that the administrator will kick you higher up (principal), or that s/he will just immediately mete out some sort of punishment. If the latter happens, I wouldn't necessarily bring up the threat of legal action immediately, since it would only tip your hand. Instead, comply with it, then try to figure out what to do next when you leave school. You should, however, reiterate your objections to a system that effectively forces students to choose between potentially alienating their parents, going along with an exercise they don't agree with, or being punished.

Of course, all this assumes that you're willing to fight the policy. If you'd rather resolve this more quietly, you could always agree to talk the matter over with your parents or tell your teacher that you'll consider saying the Pledge from now on. Doesn't mean you actually have to do either, but it does buy you time. Keep us posted if anything happens, and good luck.

Edited to add: Don't forget to mention West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 (1943). I don't know if it'll help or not, but it's possible that your teacher or administrator will back off when they realize you know what you're talking about and aren't just another uninformed nonconformist.

dirkduck

Thanks for the reply StrictSeperationist. At the start of second period today, the principal came on the intercom again and started the pledge. The teacher hadn't showed up yet (most of the kids carried on anyways), so I'm not sure yet how strict she'll be about it. Have to wait until Monday I guess.

Toto

Judge Blocks Colo. Pledge of Allegiance

Stephen Maturin

According to this article from the Denver Post, the preliminary injunction affects only four of the state's 178 school districts, although the four affected districts (Denver, Jefferson County, Aurora and Cherry Creek) are big 'uns. The author also notes that a hearing is set for next Friday.

Not suprisingly, the governor isn't at all pleased with this development:

That Owens character has gotta go. Ain't no two ways about it.

scigirl

No shit. For many reasons, though, not just that one!

scigirl