Adamantia

Last Monday I went to a debate between William Lane Craig (described <a href="http://www.jcnot4me.com/Items/contra_craig/contra_craig.htm" target="_blank">here</a> as 'Christianity's #1 living apologist') and aussie atheist Phillip Adams. I'd done a little bit of research long before the debate and had found <a href="http://www.abarnett.demon.co.uk/atheism/creation.html" target="_blank">this</a> quote: I smirked, then vaguely perused <a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/theism/christianity/craig.shtml" target="_blank">this</a> site and that was that.

I wish I had investigated further, as I have recently discovered this shocking quote from a review of a debate <a href="http://www.secweb.org/asset.asp?AssetID=147" target="_blank">here</a>


Now, I am planning to get my hands on this debate eventually, but I would like to know ASAP what EXACTLY he said from someone who has seen this tape. I am going to see him debate Phillip again tomorrow at Sydney Uni and would like to have my facts straight before putting any questions to him about this! If anyone has any questions they'd love to have asked of him, I'm all ears!

[ August 31, 2002: Message edited by: Adamantia ]</p>

HelenM

I disagree that that is special pleading.

God has unique attributes and the only valid way to evaluate God's behavior is to take them into account.

On the other hand, it would be fallacious to say "God is not exactly like human beings but we should evaluate God as if God were".

Just like it would be wrong to expect you to compete in the olympics and win - because you don't have the attributes to win (I assume - or let's say you aren't presently trained so that you could win )

It's not special pleading when you evaluate someone based on their own specific attributes; and it's wrong to evaluate them based on someone else's, that wouldn't apply to them.

People who believe humans invented God are obviously going to question why God doesn't conform to human standards. But people who believe God is real are always going to answer that God is God and who He is gives Him the right to do (allow)to human beings what human beings don't have the right to do to one another.

Panta Pei

...and this, Helen, is why I hold that this 'God' then has absolutely no relevance to the human condition at all.

~ missed you much

Steve

Adamantia

I think I am going to throw up. Helen, are you actually saying that if 'God' approves of GENOCIDE, it's OK?

Adamantia

Actually, I don't want this thread turned into such a discussion. WLC will be giving other talks later on in the week, so if you have relevant info/questions and you're reading this for the first time in the middle of the week, there's still time.

If you don't know who Phillip Adams is, you can check out his latest article in The Australian:

<a href="http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,5001528%255E12272,00.html" target="_blank">Fruitcake conspiracies</a>

August 31, 2002
WHEN I was younger, nutty people used to drive me nuts. Which is why I helped Dick Smith set up the Australian Sceptics, the local branch of that fine US organisation, the Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal. But as I grow older I see the nutters differently. The nutty are fun. The nuttier the better. For they are nuts on the sundae of life.

You can also listen to him online here:
Late Night Live
<a href="http://www.abc.net.au/rn/talks/lnl/default.htm" target="_blank">http://www.abc.net.au/rn/talks/lnl/default.htm</a>
Monday to Thursday at 10pm repeated at 4pm the following day, presented by Phillip Adams

This is rather good too:
Catechism for Atheists by Phillip Adams
<a href="http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/catechism.htm" target="_blank">http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/catechism.htm</a>

Panta Pei

Just wanted to say...Great Links!

stryder2112

I haven't heard this tape myself, but I heard William Lane Craig speak about the Problem of Evil last fall a couple of months after Sept. 11. Someone in the audience asked him about the geneocide described in the Old Testament that was commanded by God. Craig's responce was very similar to the quote you provided - that is that God commanded genocide, specifically the murder of infants and children to "prevent greater evil." Craig literally said that it was better to murder infants and children than to allow them to grow up in the "evil and corrupt" Canaanite society and thus become corrupted themselves. Craig didn't address why the Hebrews couldn't have instead adopted these children and raise them in "righteousness" and thus achieve great good. He mumbled something about the corrosive effect of these corrupted children would have had on Hebrew society and went on to the next question.

If Craig is consistant in his apologetics, and he is from everything of his I've heard or read, his rationalization of the Holocaust is probably true.

Stryder

Bible Humper

I'm with ya so far.

Actually, a being doesn't need to be "exactly like a human being" to be benevolent. This objection isn't sound.

Let's continue this analogy. Human beings are benevolent to different degrees, some plumb the depths and some soar to great heights. Yahweh is actually omnibenevolent, he is supposed to be beyond all of us.

This is a foot race with people of different speeds, and the deity Yahweh who teleports to the finish line. Yahweh should be able to outdo us all in this "race", he has no excuses to resort to if the race is even close.

The fact that he apparently ran a very poor race when he created the universe despite his alleged ability to teleport is mightily suspicious.

Bible Humper

Might makes right?

Where is the threshold past which I am able to commit wanton atrocities and still be considered "moral"?

If I ruled the world would it be moral to starve a few million here or there?

How about if I develop superpowers, gaining the abilities of a sorcerer?

If not yet, say my abilities develop more and I achieve "oneness" with the superstrings of the universe, do I have enough power to dictate what is moral yet?

What if I decide to create a new universe identical to this one, can I torment my little human creations with violence and woe benevolently?

lpetrich

That reminds me of the Nazis' reasons: that Jews were guilty of numerous crimes against humanity, and that they ought to be exterminated so that they will not commit any more terrible crimes. Crimes like:

• Killing babies to use their blood in Matzohs
• Being crooked capitalists
• Being loansharking bankers
• Inventing Communism
• Corrupting culture
• Dragging Germany down into defeat in the Great War (WWI)
• Plotting to take over the world, as described in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion"
• Lecherous Jewish men lusting after virtuous Nordic women (yes, that's in Mein Kampf)

[ September 01, 2002: Message edited by: lpetrich ]</p>