Freethought & Rationalism Archive

AndrewPearson · 04-08-2003, 05:56 PM

How do you guys feel about the Fatima "Prophecies" and the "Miracle of the Sun?" Can anyone here help me make a valid argument against these? It would really help me out. Thank you greatly.

Writer@Large · 04-08-2003, 07:52 PM

Well, one valid argument against *any* claim of prophecy is the problem of interpretation. Have you ever noticed that the Virgin Mary, Nostradomus, Jesus, Sylvia Browne, and everyone else who claims to know the future can only give their predictions in terms so vague that the prophecies themselves are *never* useful except in hindsight, when the prophecy is read in the context of some past event? And that even then, it takes a lot of inference, and sometimes a lot of selective detail, to make it fit?

Take as an example the third prophecy of Fatima. The Vatican claims it predicted the attempted assassination of Pope John Paul II. This is the full text of the prophecy as recorded by Sister Lucia in 1941 ... 14 years after the event:

Quote:

I write in obedience to you, my God, who command me to do so through his Excellency the Bishop of Leiria and through your Most Holy Mother and mine.

After the two parts which I have already explained, at the left of Our Lady and a little above, we saw an Angel with a flaming sword in his left hand; flashing, it gave out flames that looked as though they would set the world on fire; but they died out in contact with the splendour that Our Lady radiated towards him from her right hand: pointing to the earth with his right hand, the Angel cried out in a loud voice: �Penance, Penance, Penance!'. And we saw in an immense light that is God: �something similar to how people appear in a mirror when they pass in front of it' a Bishop dressed in White �we had the impression that it was the Holy Father'. Other Bishops, Priests, men and women Religious going up a steep mountain, at the top of which there was a big Cross of rough-hewn trunks as of a cork-tree with the bark; before reaching there the Holy Father passed through a big city half in ruins and half trembling with halting step, afflicted with pain and sorrow, he prayed for the souls of the corpses he met on his way; having reached the top of the mountain, on his knees at the foot of the big Cross he was killed by a group of soldiers who fired bullets and arrows at him, and in the same way there died one after another the other Bishops, Priests, men and women Religious, and various lay people of different ranks and positions. Beneath the two arms of the Cross there were two Angels each with a crystal aspersorium in his hand, in which they gathered up the blood of the Martyrs and with it sprinkled the souls that were making their way to God. [/B]

I've bolded the significant sections, the ones supposedly predicting the assassination. Now, here's the problem:

PJPII's attempted assassination took place in Vatican City, not "a big city half in ruins."
This prophecy talks of "a group of soldiers" firing "bullets and arrows;" the lone assassin, Mehmet Ali Agca, didn't fire arrows, didn't fire that many bullets, and wasn't a soldier.
This prophecy says the "Bishop in white" dies ["he was killed"]; obviously, PJPII isn't dead. This brings up a problem: are the prophecies of the Virgin Mary falliable?
Finally, this talks about a whole bunch of other holy types dying with him in the hail of bullets and arrows; this did not come to pass.

As far as online articles go, I'm actually surprised that I can't point you to a full "debunking" of the Fatima story, but I can't put my finger on one right now. Perhaps it's time someone wrote one. The Fatima sun miracle is briefly discussed in the II Library article.

This recent SCEPTICAL INQUIRER article is about the vision at Medjugorje[/i], but it makes some observations about Fatima, and other observations that are applicable to Fatima.

--W@L

echidna · 04-09-2003, 01:19 AM

There was an unpleasant thread recently which approached the Fatima Miracle from the UFO perspective ...

A few fair observations IMO, but then the thread degenerated, sorry 'bout my contribution to all that. I was also surprised at the time that I couldn't find supporting documents to debunk the claim.

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...5&pagenumber=1

sakrilege · 04-09-2003, 04:07 AM

Haven't seen it, but Joe Nickell from CSICOP participated in a Fatima show for the History Channel, Histories Mysteries.

Also, Joe has a book that discusses Fatima, but I haven't read it either, Looking for a Miracle.

HTH

sakrilege · 04-09-2003, 04:18 AM

I think this thread needs to be merged with the other Fatima thread.

edited to add: merging seems to have been done!

mike_decock · 04-09-2003, 06:58 AM

Just think about Poetry. When different people interpret a poem, they usually give it a meaning that applies to them, even though that meaning may be far removed from what the author was thinking.

It is the same with prophecy. Prophecy is written in a vague, figurative language with imagery that can be interpreted to mean almost anything.

If true prophecy existed, the prediction would list the exact date, time, location, names and accurately describe the events to take place.

-Mike...

SanDiegoAtheist · 04-09-2003, 11:09 AM

It's also quite important to note that a 'dancing sun' is a frequent aftereffect of looking DIRECTLY at the sun - which the people at Fatima were told to do.

Overloaded retinas can play tricks on people - have you ever looked directly at a bright light, then looked away? The afterimage can dance for minutes as a result of your unconscious eye movements, and it is a perfectly normal, and perfectly explainable phenomenon.

Add to this the fact that these people were EXPECTING something miraculous, and it's not terribly surprising the normal became the miraculous for them.

EDITED TO ADD: BTW, if you wish to use this against a theist, don't have them stare at the Sun lol

don't want any damage. Just have them do this little experiment with any ordinary incandescent bulb, then bring up the fact that the Sun, being MUCH brighter, would produce more brilliant and lasting afterimages.

Cheers,

The San Diego Atheist

04-08-2003, 05:56 PM	#1
AndrewPearson Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Melrose, Massachusetts Posts: 13	Fatima How do you guys feel about the Fatima "Prophecies" and the "Miracle of the Sun?" Can anyone here help me make a valid argument against these? It would really help me out. Thank you greatly.

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04-09-2003, 01:19 AM	#3
echidna Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 2,832	There was an unpleasant thread recently which approached the Fatima Miracle from the UFO perspective ... A few fair observations IMO, but then the thread degenerated, sorry 'bout my contribution to all that. I was also surprised at the time that I couldn't find supporting documents to debunk the claim. http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...5&pagenumber=1

04-09-2003, 04:07 AM	#4
sakrilege Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Cleveland, OH, USA Folding@Home Godless Team Posts: 6,211	Haven't seen it, but Joe Nickell from CSICOP participated in a Fatima show for the History Channel, Histories Mysteries. Also, Joe has a book that discusses Fatima, but I haven't read it either, Looking for a Miracle. HTH

04-09-2003, 04:18 AM	#5
sakrilege Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Cleveland, OH, USA Folding@Home Godless Team Posts: 6,211	I think this thread needs to be merged with the other Fatima thread. edited to add: merging seems to have been done!

04-09-2003, 06:58 AM	#6
mike_decock Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Scottsdale, AZ Posts: 1,505	Just think about Poetry. When different people interpret a poem, they usually give it a meaning that applies to them, even though that meaning may be far removed from what the author was thinking. It is the same with prophecy. Prophecy is written in a vague, figurative language with imagery that can be interpreted to mean almost anything. If true prophecy existed, the prediction would list the exact date, time, location, names and accurately describe the events to take place. -Mike...

04-09-2003, 11:09 AM	#7
SanDiegoAtheist Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: San Diego, CA, USA Posts: 281	It's also quite important to note that a 'dancing sun' is a frequent aftereffect of looking DIRECTLY at the sun - which the people at Fatima were told to do. Overloaded retinas can play tricks on people - have you ever looked directly at a bright light, then looked away? The afterimage can dance for minutes as a result of your unconscious eye movements, and it is a perfectly normal, and perfectly explainable phenomenon. Add to this the fact that these people were EXPECTING something miraculous, and it's not terribly surprising the normal became the miraculous for them. EDITED TO ADD: BTW, if you wish to use this against a theist, don't have them stare at the Sun lol don't want any damage. Just have them do this little experiment with any ordinary incandescent bulb, then bring up the fact that the Sun, being MUCH brighter, would produce more brilliant and lasting afterimages. Cheers, The San Diego Atheist

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