Freethought & Rationalism Archive

sbaii · 06-10-2002, 04:17 PM

I recently heard on NPR that Arabic has no verbs
"to be" or "to have". Consequently, Arabic is a very unclear language. Why wouldn't people develop a means of more precise communication? I understand that the Koran is the standard for Arabic and therefore, the language hasn't changed much since the seventh century. This suggests a culture which is not at all progressive.

Thor Q. Mada · 06-10-2002, 05:48 PM

Maybe, but our alphanumerical come from Arabic, and so do a lot of words such as alcohol, and algebra, and most likely also algorithm. And maybe they have not progressed much but not since the 7th century. Their progress stopped much later. And by the way, Western Europe had also a few periods of serious stagnation and in fact the stagnation.
This can arguably also be contributed to our enlightened religion.
Remember that some people blame the xians for the downfall of the Roman empire.
In fact after the downfall there was not just stagnation, but civilization actually and virtually disappeared.
And then came the dark ages. Also not exactly a great time!
We don't have the right to look down on others in the way you suggest.

Gurdur · 06-10-2002, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sbaii:

I recently heard on NPR that Arabic has no verbs
"to be" or "to have". Consequently, Arabic is a very unclear language. Why wouldn't people develop a means of more precise communication? I understand that the Koran is the standard for Arabic and therefore, the language hasn't changed much since the seventh century. This suggests a culture which is not at all progressive.

Uh, this is all a myth.

It is entirely possible to express possession and being in Arabic.

Furthermore, while the language of the Koran is Classical Arabic, that doesn't stop the further development of tons of other modern Arabic (sub-)languages - Maltese, for example, is an Arabic language/dialect with a huge amount of vocabulary derived from Italian and English.

In ALL cases where its is claimed that some language has no word for a commonly-used entity, be very skeptical - simply because an entity is expressed in one language in a non-congruent way to English does NOT mean it is not possible to express that enitity in that language.

Sapir and Whorf, anyone ?
The Great Eskimo Snow Hoax, anyone ?

BTW, just how come English has no words (other than borrowed) for the German "doch", "schadenfreude", "Abreaktion", "Kindergarten", etc. etc. ?

Seems to me English is a very non-progressive language...

roshan · 06-10-2002, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Thor Q. Mada:
Maybe, but our alphanumerical come from Arabic, and so do a lot of words such as alcohol, and algebra, and most likely also algorithm. And maybe they have not progressed much but not since the 7th century. Their progress stopped much later. And by the way, Western Europe had also a few periods of serious stagnation and in fact the stagnation.
This can arguably also be contributed to our enlightened religion.
Remember that some people blame the xians for the downfall of the Roman empire.
In fact after the downfall there was not just stagnation, but civilization actually and virtually disappeared.
And then came the dark ages. Also not exactly a great time!
We don't have the right to look down on others in the way you suggest.

actually, the numbers that we use today do not originate from arabic. they originate from ancient sanskrit. early versions of our numbers can be found on the pillars erected by the indian king ashoka, as well as in many ancient hindu texts and inscriptions.

alberuni, a famous muslim mathematician, records:

Quote:

"The Hindus do not use the letters of their alphabet for numerical notation, as we use Arabic letters in the order of the Hebrew alphabet. As in different parts of India the letters have different shapes, the numerical signs, too, which are called 'anka', differ. The numerical signs which we use are derived from the finest forms of the Hindu signs……. The Arabs, too, stop with the thousand, which is certainly the most correct and the most natural thing to do. .... Those, however, who go beyond the thousand in their numeral system are the Hindus, at least in their arithmetical technical terms, which have been either freely invented or derived according to certain etymologies, whilst in others both methods are blended together. They extend the names of the orders of numbers until the 18th order for religious reasons, the mathematicians being assisted by the grammarians with all kinds of etymologies."

sbaii · 06-11-2002, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gurdur:


Uh, this is all a myth.

It is entirely possible to express possession and being in Arabic.

_________________________________________________

I'm just quoting an Arabic scholar from Egypt who found Arabic very murky. Incidentally, I did find definitions for schadenfreude and abreaktion. I think those German words are used by academic types to show off and otherwise obfuscate. Time magazine likes words like those two again to show off but also to save space. I tried looking up weltanschaung but I may have misspelled it.
Words expressing a religious or otherwise ineffable experience are usually not translatable into any other language, i.e., nirvana, ecstasy.

BTW is Maltese spoken very widely?

Furthermore, while the language of the Koran is Classical Arabic, that doesn't stop the further development of tons of other modern Arabic (sub-)languages - Maltese, for example, is an Arabic language/dialect with a huge amount of vocabulary derived from Italian and English.

In ALL cases where its is claimed that some language has no word for a commonly-used entity, be very skeptical - simply because an entity is expressed in one language in a non-congruent way to English does NOT mean it is not possible to express that enitity in that language.

Sapir and Whorf, anyone ?
The Great Eskimo Snow Hoax, anyone ?

BTW, just how come English has no words (other than borrowed) for the German "doch", "schadenfreude", "Abreaktion", "Kindergarten", etc. etc. ?

Seems to me English is a very non-progressive language...

sbaii · 06-11-2002, 04:28 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Thor Q. Mada:
[QB]Maybe, but our alphanumerical come from Arabic, and so do a lot of words such as alcohol, and algebra, and most likely also algorithm. And maybe they have not progressed much but not since the 7th century. Their progress stopped much later. And by the way, Western Europe had also a few periods of serious stagnation and in fact the stagnation.
This can arguably also be contributed to our enlightened religion.
__________________________________________________
I may be missing your irony. What enllightened religion are referring to? And don't say "our religion", ke-mo-sa-bee.

__________________________________________________
Remember that some people blame the xians for the downfall of the Roman empire.

Well, Nero did. But most people I know blame the
Germanic tribes like the Vandals and the Goths for the sacking of Rome.
__________________________________________________
In fact after the downfall there was not just stagnation, but civilization actually and virtually disappeared.

In Europe. I think civilization chugged merrily along in the Orient.
I'm haardly the first to remark that the Arabic speaking countries seemed to have been left in the dust. And scholars are blaming it at least in part to the worship of the Koran's language.

Grizzly · 06-11-2002, 04:29 PM

Very interesting discussion - but not appropriate for this forum. Off to Misc Discussions

[ June 11, 2002: Message edited by: Grizzly ]

06-10-2002, 04:17 PM	#1
sbaii Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: big bad Deetroit Posts: 2,850	the Arabic language I recently heard on NPR that Arabic has no verbs "to be" or "to have". Consequently, Arabic is a very unclear language. Why wouldn't people develop a means of more precise communication? I understand that the Koran is the standard for Arabic and therefore, the language hasn't changed much since the seventh century. This suggests a culture which is not at all progressive.

06-11-2002, 04:29 PM	#7
Grizzly Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Tallahassee, Florida Posts: 2,936	Very interesting discussion - but not appropriate for this forum. Off to Misc Discussions [ June 11, 2002: Message edited by: Grizzly ]</p>

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06-10-2002, 05:48 PM	#2
Thor Q. Mada Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Asia Posts: 3,558	Maybe, but our alphanumerical come from Arabic, and so do a lot of words such as alcohol, and algebra, and most likely also algorithm. And maybe they have not progressed much but not since the 7th century. Their progress stopped much later. And by the way, Western Europe had also a few periods of serious stagnation and in fact the stagnation. This can arguably also be contributed to our enlightened religion. Remember that some people blame the xians for the downfall of the Roman empire. In fact after the downfall there was not just stagnation, but civilization actually and virtually disappeared. And then came the dark ages. Also not exactly a great time! We don't have the right to look down on others in the way you suggest.

06-11-2002, 04:28 PM	#6
sbaii Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: big bad Deetroit Posts: 2,850	[QUOTE]Originally posted by Thor Q. Mada: [QB]Maybe, but our alphanumerical come from Arabic, and so do a lot of words such as alcohol, and algebra, and most likely also algorithm. And maybe they have not progressed much but not since the 7th century. Their progress stopped much later. And by the way, Western Europe had also a few periods of serious stagnation and in fact the stagnation. This can arguably also be contributed to our enlightened religion. __________________________________________________ I may be missing your irony. What enllightened religion are referring to? And don't say "our religion", ke-mo-sa-bee. __________________________________________________ Remember that some people blame the xians for the downfall of the Roman empire. Well, Nero did. But most people I know blame the Germanic tribes like the Vandals and the Goths for the sacking of Rome. __________________________________________________ In fact after the downfall there was not just stagnation, but civilization actually and virtually disappeared. In Europe. I think civilization chugged merrily along in the Orient. I'm haardly the first to remark that the Arabic speaking countries seemed to have been left in the dust. And scholars are blaming it at least in part to the worship of the Koran's language.

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