Theli

Eternal matter?


Who said "eternal matter"?

The notion of big bang ruins the idea of eternal matter. Eternal with a beginning? Don't think so.

Boone K. Lowe

To all:

I will concede that I was overzealous when I wrote the original item. I apologize to all who don't have a belief, or who have different beliefs concerning God or creation.

Makes for good target practice, doesn't it?

Boone K. Lowe

Are you saying there was nothing before the bang? The notion I always heard was that the universe is constantly expanding until it reaches a point where it starts to contract on itself, thus hurtling us towards another big bang. Maybe I'm just showing my age.

cricket

Dare I ask...?

It sure seems like a lot of people say this. Since they're of various religions, they can't all be correct, so at least some people must be misinterpreting the 'evidence'.

BLoggins02

This is one of a couple of theories regarding the origin of the Universe. Another explanation was that there was really no "time" before the big bang so the question of "what was there before?" is meaningless (see Stephen Hawking's A Brief History of Time for more about this view).

Also, let's just suppose there was nothing, then you would ask "so, then who created the something?" The problem is, when I ask you "Who created God?" you can't just dodge it by saying "He's God, He doesn't need to be created, He is eternal." Well that's nice, but you haven't really explained anything, you've just moved the chain of responsibility up another notch, ....

... except, now instead of accounting for how a simple chaotic moment of matter came into being you have to explain how an infinitely powerful, infinitely complex deity came into being, and then you have to explain to us why that's a simpler explanation.

Godless Dave

That's one hypothesis. Another is that the universe just keeps expanding forever. Either way, time is a property of the universe, so there is no "before" the big bang in physics.

free12thinker

Okay. But when the topic of discussion states "What is so hard to believe", and I draw parallels to it, it would benefit you, and your arguments, to pick one or the other. So do you have an answer? Do you believe that I saw the sun rise, or do you believe that an elephant was selling peanuts. Not "do you believe that we think we saw what we say we saw", but do you believe they are both reasonable observations that we likely did see, and could've been seen by others? Why or why not?

[ April 29, 2002: Message edited by: free12thinker ]</p>

Echo

I'd be interested to know what these things were, and how you reconcile them with Non-Christian theists who say that they have also experienced things in their lives that corroborate their particular religious beliefs and do not point any other way.

daemon

I think this has been disassembled well enough by others. However, I have not seen it noted yet: Evolution has nothing to do with "eternal matter." Evolution, in science, is the biological process of the development of organisms.
Regardless of your opinions of scientists, the fact remains that the most valuable and useful observations we have about the universe have come through the scientific method. I find your criteria of determining the truth of a scientific fact from personal credulity and personal meaning to be ludicrous in the extreme.
<a href="http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/bombardier.html" target="_blank">Incorrect.</a>
Incorrect. In some cases science backs up empirical claims made by or derived from the Bible. Theology is another realm altogether.
Well, by your own definitions, I shouldn't listen to you, then. I have no idea how you came to this conclusion from the above.
Okay, that's fine. If you aren't interested in debate, why are you here? This is a forum, not a pulpit.
You know, even when I was a Christian, this idea never made any sense to me. If, as Christian doctrine (as I learned it) goes, Yahweh loves us all so much that he sent himself down to die for us, what does that mean about us? Obviously, we have worth to God. So, then, by what possible meaningful meaning could we be unworthy? We're obviously worthy to God, and God is the ultimate arbiter of worth to a Christian. To state that humanity or Christians are unworthy is to place themselves above God.

I would suggest rethinking this, as a Christian.
I don't know. Assuming a metaphysical naturalist stance? Nothing. However, this is not usually the value placed upon life (what you get in the afterlife) that a metaphysical naturalist would have. Some say that the Christian inherently lowers the value of their life by believing, preaching, and participating in nonsense.
Yes, yes, Pascal's Wager. Very nice.

brighid

I think the theist wager (aka Pascals Wager) is more then a bit stupid. I am not really sure if God does or does not exist, but I am going to pick one religion (the one I was indoctrinated into in my youth generally) with the hope that I picked the RIGHT one, just in case so I can believe I might be saved after I die! Now, if there is a God, don’t you think he is going to KNOW that this believer is just doing it to be “safe” and not because of a true belief and or love for this Being? Maybe the Christian God is the right God, but I really don’t know, so to be safe I am going to go through the motions and keep all doubts at the fringe of my thinking and never really know truth – JUST IN CASE! Yeah, your omnipotent God isn’t going to see right through that flimsy bullshit! But hey – if Allah is really the TRUE God, and all the rest of it is just a Satanic diversion – they are all fucked any way … so theist … how do you choose which wager to take? Jesus, Allah, Vishnu, Satan … roll the dice … maybe you will the lucky winner!

B