Oxymoron

UK Infidels: did any of you see the BBC2 programme on NDEs on 5th Feb? I videoed it, and just watched it. What did people think?

It seemed to be claiming that people were experiencing NDEs when their brains were being recorded as inactive. One woman from Atlanta was being treated for an aneurism in her brain. Allegedly, the surgeons shut her brain down 100%, and yet she claims to have had an NDE where she was watching the surgeons perform the operation, and recounted technical conversations between the operating team. A doctor actually suggested that ESP was involved!

(Edited to add)
My favourite quote from the show: one man described his NDE, in which claimed to have had a "telepathic conversation with a horse"

Philosoft

The very idea of a soul or spirit hearing or seeing anything is ludicrous at best. We see things because photons of varying wavelengths strike our retinae and the patterns are interpreted by specialized brain structures; we hear because vibrating air strikes our tympanic membranes at slightly different speeds and locations and the patterns are interpreted by specialized brain structures. The idea of a set of invisible, intangible supernatural sense organs that are attuned to natural phenomena is loonier than the notion of the supernatural itself. Parenthetically, I always find it convenient that NDE sufferers never manifest a supernatural sense of touch.

eh

Yes, I've heard of that one before. New agers will cite this as proof near death experiences are valid visions of the afterlife. In some hospitals this idea has been tested by placing secret messages in the ceiling. Should a patient have an out of body experience and read the message, we would have some evidence of something going on outside of the brain. Surprise surprise, nobody has been able to read the messages to this day.

You can find a nice community of new agers at http://forums.near-death.com to see what the believers think. It seems that while II gets a fair share of Christian theists, new agers are unable to find these boards.

Oxymoron

The suggestion in this show was that brain function is supported at a lower level in the brain by the microtubules, so even shutting down the synapse/neuron/axon route wouldn't stop the brain processing...

...fine, it's a testable hypothesis. Sounds a little far-feteched, but not outrageously so. But they ruined it then by invoking Penrose, Quantum superposition and entanglement to suggest that the mind (as implemented by quantum processes in the microtubule network) could survive intact after death.

Of course, none of the patients have actually died. It is near death experience, not death experience, and given that death is difficult to define anyway, this all sounds like A Load Of Old Rubbish (tm).

NightWatchman

http://www.hiddenmeanings.com/outofbody.htm


Real news from CSMIC RELIEF


Researchers discover possible "God module" in circuitry of brain


Are humans hardwired to hear the voice of God? Scientists at the University of California, San Diego, recently found that parts of the brain's temporal lobe, dubbed the "God module," may be the seat of mystical experiences.

The scientists, possibly fearing retribution from militant believers, emphasized that their findings in no way suggest that religion is simply a matter of brain chemistry. "So please don't hurt us," they added.
Based on a story by Robert Lee Hotz, in the Los Angeles Times, Oct. 1997

NEW ORLEANS -- Researchers at the University of California, San Diego, have reported that the human brain may be hard-wired to hear the voice of heaven. This may be the first effort to directly address the neural basis of religious experience and expression.

While studying a group of patients suffering from an unusual form of epilepsy that effects the temporal lobe, researchers at the UC San Diego brain and perception laboratory determined that the parts of the brain's temporal lobe -- which the scientists immediately named the "God module" -- may affect how intensely a person responds to religious beliefs.

People suffering this rare type of epilepsy have long reported intense mystical and religious experiences during their seizures. However, they are also unusually preoccupied with mystical thoughts between seizures. That gave this team the idea to use these patients to investigate the relationship between the physical structure of the brain and spiritual experiences.

In their carefully designed experiment, researchers determined that one effect of the patients' seizures was to strengthen their brain's involuntary response to religious words, leading the scientists to suggest a portion of the brains was naturally attuned to ideas about a supreme being.

The team reported that it was not clear why such dedicated neural machinery for religion may have evolved, but they suggested that one possibility was to encourage tribe loyalty or reinforce kinship ties or the stability of a closely knit clan.

The scientists emphasized that their findings in no way suggest religion is nothing more than a matter of brain chemistry. "These studies do not in any way negate the validity of religious experience or God," they cautioned. "They merely provide an explanation in terms of brain regions that may be involved."

The researchers studied three patients, all of whom displayed the unusual mystical preoccupations and profound religious feelings of people whose epilepsy affects the temporal lobe. They tested the patients' involuntary responses to a series of test words about sex, violence and religion by measuring the electrical conductivity of their skin. This is a standard laboratory technique for assessing emotional responses. Comparing the patients' responses to those of a group of more normally religious people and a neutral control group, they found that the patients had an unusually strong reaction to religious terms like the word "god" compared to the other people tested.

Researchers said their study suggests there may be neural circuits in the temporal lobe that could be part of the machinery of the brain involved in the mystical experiences and God. Both during the seizures and in between the seizures, there is a heightened activity of these circuits.

Phanes

I have read about those before (both the "God module" and the OoB theories) and they do seem valid so far, though it is a bit early to tell. But why you think either one supports any sort of religious view is beyond me. It's a scientific explanation, not proof of mystical spiritual voyages. Various hallucinogenics would also provide an empirically verifiable reason people experience certain things; that doesn't mean LSD is a sign from God.

If anything, it might suggest religious experiences (God or his tunnel) are the result of some hyperactivity in some part of the brain.

Amie

Hi eh,
none that we know of

Oxymoron

...and you know differently? Amie, you're not... a GHOST, are you?

Marduk

"If anything, it might suggest religious experiences (God or his tunnel) are the result of some hyperactivity in some part of the brain"

This still seems like it could go either way, encountering a God or some powerful thing no doubt would stimulate hyperactivity in the brain. I experience hyperactivity in the Brain whenever I see Claudia Black on Farscape.

Amie

Hi Oxymoron
No I am not a ghost I really dont know differently but I do know several people who have had NDE's who never spoke about it with anyone other than fellow NDE'ers. I had one. I know what I saw.