davidH

Guys that debated this with me the last time - I want to say that I have revised my theory.
I did buy a couple of books and things have changed.......but it seems to fit better and give a reason as to why certain things happened that still puzzle archaeologists today.

One thing I would like to ask at the start - why are there so many alternative dates to reigns etc?
Are there different and contradictory timelines that have been recorded in history?
Sadly it seems that the 18th Dynasty is one of the more complex....annoying.

Anyway I'm going to run my theory past anyone who would care to critise and tear it apart - seriously I would like people to voice opinions, tell me where my logic has left me and keep me right.
Since no one person can have all the data needed, post other stuff you know of etc.

If those who debated this with me the last time want to give their insight again I would be grateful as it is because of them that I reject part of the last theory.

I also want to say that this is totally what I have come up with from reading history and comparing it to the Bible. This theory may well be already known but I'll put up what I think happened.

Will start posting as soon as I can.

Jayhawker Soule

Why not take the opposite approach. Why not first ask if "anyone who would care to critise and tear it apart" and, if not, refrain.

BTW, congratulations on buying those books.

[ October 31, 2002: Message edited by: ReasonableDoubt ]</p>

Asha'man

This may be a bit of a diversion, david, but why would you even want the story of the Exodus to be true? From my point of view, it just proves how cruel and evil the OT God was.

An omnipotent God could easily find ways to extract Moses and his people from Egypt, without inflicting any suffering or death upon anyone. He could teleport them away, cause the Egyptian army to fall asleep, or just make the Jews invisible.

Instead, he cruelly torments the innocent Egyptian people. When the Pharaoh is willing to let Moses and crew leave, God “hardens the heart” of Pharaoh, making him change his mind. Why? God has manufactured himself an excuse for yet more killing and torment. Even worse, while God’s excuse might allow him to direct torments against the Pharaoh, he instead continues to direct his torture against the innocent Egyptian people.

So, I ask again, why on earth would you be trying to prove that this story of God’s cruelty is true?

davidH

In order to test a theory you need those who would oppose the theory because they will always think critically....there are people like that here and maybe they will be interested in helping me get details correct. - If not then it doesn't bother me.


Anyway, firstly I'd better define the timeline that I am going to take. I am taking the "Oxford History of Ancient Egypt" as my main source of information.
For those that want to read up about the Exodus start reading at the beginning of Exodus.

Ok, I'll make a start.

The accepted date of the building of the temple was around 960BC - I'm going to take the exact date that's accepted which is 966BC and work back from there - though it should be noted that there may be a relative degree of inaccuracy.

Ok so a simple calculation will tell you that according to the Bible the Exodus took place in 966+480 = 1446 BC

Now from this date further things can be worked out as I'll show below.

Moses sees one being mistreated, kills the Egyptian and then flees the country because pharoh wants him dead.

At this point Moses is told to return to Egypt and rescue the Israelites by the power of God.

So the Bible shows that Moses when he was 80 years old led the people out of Egypt.

To support these verses is Deut 34 v 7 where it says that Moses died when he was 120 years old.

So from the above verses more can be worked out.

If the Exodus took place in 1446 BC and Moses was 80 at the time then:

Moses was born in 1526 BC

Moses fled from Egypt when he was 40 therefore:

Moses fled in 1486 BC

The conquest of Canaan had therefore started around 1400 (give or take a couple of years).

These are the dates that the Bible provides us with for the Exodus - if the Bible is correct then these dates should fit in with what was happening at that time in Egyptian history.
It should also be able to give insight into why certain things where done.

Now that I have established the Biblical dates for the Exodus we need to have the timeline for the pharohs at that particular time.

The timeline I have taken was the one that was presented to me last time we had this debate and is as follows:

Ahmose (1550 - 1525)
Amenhotep I (1525 - 1504)
Thutmose I (1504 - 1492)
Thutmose II (1492 - 1479)
*Thutmose III (1479 - 1473)
*Queen Hatshepsut (1473 - 1458)
*Thutmose III (1458 - 1425)
Amenhotep II (1427 - 1400)
Thutmose IV (1400 - 1390)
Amenhotep II (1390 - 1352)
Amenhotep III (Akhenaten) (1352 - 1336)

The last couple I don't really touch on but I'll put them in anyway.

Neferneferuaten (1338 - 1336)
Tutankhamun (1336 - 1327)
Ay (1327 - 1323)
Horemheb (1323 - 1295)

* You'll see the place where I put this and I did it to clarify something.
As it is written in this book Thutmose III came to power, but his stepmother Hatshepsut took the power from him because he was still a child. She ruled until her disappearance in 1458 when the now grown Thotmose III took his throne again.
(But I'll cover some of this here later on again.)

I'm going to stop here for today - those are the dates I am using.

You will have no doubt have heard the theories based on the earlier date - but I have provided the verses above which don't correspond to that earlier date. There are other verses too that contradict that earlier date.
The only thing that seems to support the earlier date is the mentioning of the Israelites building these 2 cities:
Pithom and Rameses

These are said to have been built during the reign of Rameses II.
But that is flimsy evidence to discard the verses mentioned above on.
There are some explanations for this:

1. The names of Pithom and Rameses were editorial updates if Rameses II had extended the cities and renamed them, or possibly rebuilt them if they had been destroyed.

2. Rameses II took the credit for them himself.

But for myself I see the verses indicating the date as far greater evidence for indicating when the Exodus took place.

From the dates above you should be able to start to piece together who was who when Moses was around.
I'll show that next time and start to form my theory with it. It's actually very interesting when you piece this together and try and form a theory on why things happened.
Try it yourself and see what you come up with if you want to. You may come up with a totally different theory that is still plausible.

Cya.

davidH

Asha'man,

To try not to prove something just because it makes you feel uncomfortable is the wrong attitude. It's the truth that matters - no matter what it brings with it.

Anyway according to what you said, maybe you should try proving the Exodus to show that God was cruel etc...

Anyway I don't see God being cruel at all. The choice is given to pharoh - he had seen that everything Moses had said had happened - why in the world didn't he let the people go?! Surely he knew that everything Moses had said would come true!!

Anyway, this is not what this post is on - though if you want to discuss it further make a new topic and give me the link and I'll talk there.

Jayhawker Soule

Get over yourself. (Parenthetically, when would you suggest Deuteronomy was authored?)

WRW Mattfeld

David, you could save yourself a lot of grief and work by just visiting my website and studying the articles I have on the Exodus.

You make a common asumption, made by others, that 480 years elapsed from the exodus to Solomon's 4th year based on a statement from 1 Kings 6:1. What you are apparently NOT aware of is that the Bible preserves TWO conflicting dates for the Exodus. From the reigns of the Judges, scholars have noted that nearly 600 years elapsed from the Exodus to Solomon's 4th year (966 BCE) placing the Exodus in the reign of Pharaoh Ahmose I, founder of the 18th dynasty and expeller of the Hyksos, who are identified by Redford and Assman as the "historical kernels" behind the Exodus event. Using ststements from the New Tetament in combination with data from Judges and I Kings, I have deteremined that the Exodus took place in 1540 BCE, the date of the Hyksos expulsion, according to some scholars. Cf. my articles on the Exodus problems and anomalies.

<a href="http://www.bibleorigins.net/Exodus1540BCHyksos.html" target="_blank">http://www.bibleorigins.net/Exodus1540BCHyksos.html</a>

<a href="http://www.bibleorigins.net/ExodusProblems.html" target="_blank">http://www.bibleorigins.net/ExodusProblems.html</a>

<a href="http://www.bibleorigins.net/Hebrewhabiruslaves.html" target="_blank">http://www.bibleorigins.net/Hebrewhabiruslaves.html</a>

<a href="http://www.bibleorigins.net/ExodusTimnaSerabitelKhadim.html" target="_blank">http://www.bibleorigins.net/ExodusTimnaSerabitelKhadim.html</a>

<a href="http://www.bibleorigins.net/MountHoreb.html" target="_blank">http://www.bibleorigins.net/MountHoreb.html</a>

Jeremy Pallant

The Exodus as described in the Bible isn't possible for one simple reason. Logistics. According to the Bible, the Exodus involved an estimated two to three million people. The military, the people with the most experience of moving large numbers of people around, weren't capable of such a feat until the invention of the railroad. It is therefore unlikely in the extreme that the Biblical Exodus ever took place.

Amos

Sorry Asha'man but the story was true but not in a literal sense of the word david may want it to be true.

The story of Moses is a horror story that describes the makings of a Senecan tragedy and I can't seem to comprehend why Moses was ever looked upon with admiration and respect.

The big mistake was to part the waters instead of walking on top of the waters and so into the promised land. Read Jn.6 and see how Jesus mocked the fate the children of Israel who ate manna, which was second hand from Moses, and therefore died nonetheless. Rather, Jesus said, come to me and possess that life (Jn.5:39-40) and we'll break bread from heaven so you may have eternal life.

The "waters" here is the celestial sea which is our own soul whereupon we must learn to walk if we ever wish to become eternal (eternal life exist in our soul only because time-as-such is not known in our soul). So to have parted the waters is to have forcibly entered the promised land of our soul-- as child of Isreal nonetheless because of our exposure to immortality-- but because of our forced entree we will never mature and become fully one with Israel.

In other words, Moses had it all wrong and only exist in scripture so we do not make the same mistake. Notice how Moses got to be only 120 years old instead of the full thousand available to him in the Thousand Year Reign of God.

Moses was a good man, devoted to his faith and all such things but was misled to believe that he could search for God and actually find God.

Anyway, I am not here to preach but rather than dismiss the bible by saying it is not true or that it can be proven false in by historical accounts, I would rather find a solution in the wisdom of philosophy.

Moses may have been a good man, but just like MacBeth he was to eager to become "king in the hereafter." Too eager and much too human and maybe this was the wrong time to go for the bottom of the can and get the lid on your nose.

davidH

Alright good to see the input. Actually I had just written a reply to Reasonable doubt and went to type the name WRW Mattfield.....I pressed Ctrl W and lost everything! Twice it has happened to me and it is starting to get at me lol!

Anyway I'll be more careful next time.

ReasonableDoubt,

I won't give the whole answer that I had given but just say that I do see it as being written by Moses and finished off by Phinehas and his son.
There are 2 reasons:

1. The covenant follows the "guidelines" of the Hivitte treaty which was a common method used in that time. This treaty method dropped out of use soon after. So it does suggest it was written in that peroid.

2. Jesus said that Moses had written about him.

So we do have an eye witness account of the Exodus..Moses himself and if the Exodus did occur in the time that I mentioned above then it should fit in with Egyptian history at that time.

WRW Mattfield,

You say that it is 450 years to Saul....I have gone over the judges peroid and tried to make a timeline myself....but what I found was that it is impossible to know when time peroids are overlapping. Many dates are given but sometimes it says...and after 40 years....but other times it gives the years and doesn't say where it has begun counting from. So a precise date from what is given is impossible, overlaps are present.

But bare with me WRW and see what you think of what I say, you obviously know more than I do and so you should be able to raise interesting points.


Jeremy,

The Bible says that there were 600,000 not including women or children. So possibly 2million might be a bit high.
But think about it - all you need is the people to be following each other with someone who knows where they are going up front. I can see no problem with this.

Amos,

Yes, just read and see the mocking words of Jesus.... Amos - you have to have a serious imagination to twist all that around to portray Jesus as mocking.

--------------------------------

Ok, I'll carrying on and make a start.

We have Moses born around 1526BC and we find that the pharoh alive then was Ahmose.

So about this pharoh this is written in the Bible:

Ahmose fits in with the time frame allowing the Israelites to multiple greatly and become exceeding numerous. Also this is the King present when Moses is born and this can only be Ahmose.

So we turn to Egyptian history and we find something extremely interesting. As WRW said, Ahmose was one of those that helped expell the foreign Hykos Kings.

Ok, so if Ahmose did expell the foreign Kings at this time it is logical to assume that he would have been extremely concious of any large number of foreign peoples in his land. - Correct?
He would have been fearful that they would retake the land from him.

Now I must make something clear at this point.
According to the Bible the Israelites lived in peace along side the Egyptians - they were not the Hykos that had taken the land from the Egyptians but had settled there from the time of Joseph.
So it is my view that the Israelites were present but had nothing to do with this situation that had arisen.

So once the Hykos had been dethroned the new Egyptian pharoh's eyes would have turned to the Israelites living in the land. Although they had played no part, they were not Egyptian and so would have been regarded with fear and suspicion.

Now turning back to the Biblical account we find that it completely supports this view.

This is exactly what you would expect Ahmose to say about the Israelites after he had come to power.We see here a remarkable parallel between the Biblical account and Egyptian history.
This fits in perfectly.

Right, pausing here for a moment - is my logic ok up to this point?

A quick summary: Israelites multiply in Egypt, a new King comes to power (Ahmose) he is suspicious of the Israelites who had been living peacefully in the land for a couple hundred years.
Egyptian history tells why this King was suspicious and fits in with the Biblical account.

Ahmose in the Biblical account then puts the Israelites to forced labour "worked the ruthlessly (Exodus 1v13)".

But the Israelites multiply all the more and spread.

Then Ahmose decides that something drastic is needed - he has worked the Israelites so hard that he has given them something to rebel about and Ahmose doesn't like the way they are growing in number.

Enter Moses.

Moses being born around 1526 would have had a year to a couple of months or year of Ahmose rule but then been under the rule of Amenhotep I.However giving the date I think it more likely that it was Ahmose's daughter that found Moses in the Nile (Exodus 2 v 5).


However Amenhotep I's daughter is said to have been Satamun so it may possibly have been her that is the princess referred to - though she would not yet have been born at this stage...so this again supports the point that it was one of Ahmose's daughters - I'm not totally finished researching this point.

*** So I take the position that it was a daughter of Ahmose that is referred to as the princess. Ahmose's 2 daughters were Satkamose and (Ahmose-) Merytamun.

Ok let me explain a little of the family history.
Ahmose's mother was Ahhotep and in the beginning of Ahmose's reign she held the position of "God's wife" Her daughter called Ahmose-Nefertari, then took her mother's position of "God's wife" and her and Ahmose had 2 sons and the 2 daughters mentioned above.

As I already said the next pharaoh was Amenhotep I and this was Ahmose's son. Amenhotep I's wife was (Ahmose-) Merytamun, his sister (she was the daughter of Ahmose-Nefertari (God's wife).
The other daughter is not known to be Ahmose-Nefertari's daughter (possibly from another wife).

"In any case, the Queen [Ahmose-Nefertari]survived her husband Ahmose and even her son Amenhotep I, and still held the position of god's wife of Amun in the reign of Thutmose I (1504 - 1492)." pg 229 Oxford History of Ancient Egypt.

Now this is important: If (Ahmose-)Merytamun was the one that found Moses and "he became her son" (Exodus 2 v 10) then Moses would have been under the protection of Merytamun's mother (Ahmose-Nefertari) until her death in Thutmose I reign. - Correct so far?

The importance of this will soon be shown.

Now this is another point I would like to stress here. "Ahmose-Nefertari died in the reign of Thutmose I and was replaced by Hatshepsut" pg 231 Oxford History of Ancient Egypt.

So now to give the ages of Moses during the reigns of the various pharohs.

born 0-1 years old Ahmose
1-22 years old Amenhotep I
22-34 years old Thutmose I
34-40 years old Queen Hatshepsut/Thutmose II
At this point Moses flees for his life.

Ok I have to stop here - tell me what you think about it so far.

[ November 03, 2002: Message edited by: davidH ]</p>