rainbow walking

One of the catchphrases often used in the evangelization of the masses is the declaration that God offers us the free gift of salvation thru belief in Jesus Christ.

But is this a gift and is it free. Anyone who's been or is a practicing christian for any length of time knows full well that simply accepting Christs' death on the cross for our sins isn't all that's required or perpetuated in and by the church. There's a whole list of commitments, commandments, expectations and requirements that accompany this initial confession. There's tithing, attendence, obedience and respect of the ministers, programs, offices to be filled, evangelization, personal alteration of ones behavior to conform to specific behavior patterns, prayer and fasting...the abrogation of any one of these being sufficient cause to get one excommunicated, ostracised and condemned to hell. No church was ever built and kept fully functional by people who did nothing more than confess a faith in Jesus Christ as their savior. Now we have the spectacle of gigantic organizations comprised of numerous mini-fiefdoms created and held in place by individual dynamic pulpiteers all playing the same hole card.

The trade off is non-negotiable but the Pied Piper sure can pick a mean piccilo.

Amos

Good question and "where is thy victory" should be next. It probably proves that there are two kinds of salvation. One from carnal desire and one from God (Jn.1:13) in which one will be given a scorpion and the other a fish. One will go to church and remain enslaved to the law while the other will be set free from religion and the bondage to slavery and sin (Gal.1-5 and Rev.14:12 as juxtaposed with Rev.14:13).

[ April 28, 2002: Message edited by: Amos ]</p>

BLoggins02

Amos, hell has frozen over, I understood your symbolism!

<img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

Eudaimonist

IOW, if you don't earn something you now possess, it's someone else's to offer or take away, and therefore to control, and if you take the bait you may also be controlled. Beware the strings attached to your "free gift".

Christians even think of themselves as "fishers of men". How apt! The "free gift" of bait on the hook has a string attached to reel you in.

Beware Christians bearing gifts.

[ April 28, 2002: Message edited by: Eudaimonist ]</p>

Amos

There is a nasty spin on the bible to be read by literalists. They will become fishers of men (and wolves at that) for the conversion of sinners in effort to gain status with God and security in their own idea of salvation.

The reason why this element is needed is to estabilish the direction of the herd mentality against which salvation must be found. The enforcement of morals should never become a criminal issue because that would remove the conviction of sin from the inner man (stream of consciousness, Herod) to the outer man (legalism, Pilate) and no inner conviction as sinner will come about. No salvation in Puritan religions.

[ April 28, 2002: Message edited by: Amos ]</p>

ManM

Salvation from what? The free gift is salvation from death. Salvation from sin is something else entirely.

Amos

As I understand it there is no salvation from death because salvation from sin comes out of our death to sin. Without sin there is no first death and it is out of our first death that we are born to eternal life and eternal life ends with our second death.

ManM

Well Amos, I don't know what tradition you are coming from, but the message of Christianity is quite clear... "Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death, and upon those in the tombs bestowing life." -Troparion of Great and Holy Pascha

This is the entire point. St. John Chrysostom's Easter sermon is a great illustration of this core message.

"Let none grieve their poverty,
For the universal kingdom has been revealed.
Let none mourn that they have fallen, over, and over again;
For forgiveness has risen from the grave.
Let none fear death, for the death of our Savior has set us free.
The Lord has destroyed it by enduring it.
The Lord destroyed hell when He descended into it.
The Lord put hell in turmoil even as it tasted of His flesh.

Isaiah foretold this when he said,
"You, O Hell, have been troubled by encountering him below."
Hell is in turmoil because it has been eclipsed.
Hell is in turmoil because it is mocked.
Hell is in turmoil, for it is destroyed.
Hell is in turmoil, for it is annihilated.
Hell is in turmoil, for it is now made captive.
Hell grasped a corpse, and discovered God.
Hell seized earth, and encountered heaven.
Hell took what it saw, and was overcome by what it did not see.

O death, where is thy sting?
O hell, where is thy victory?

Christ is risen, and you, O death, are obliterated!
Christ is risen, and the evil ones are cast down!
Christ is risen, and the angels rejoice!
Christ is risen, and life is set free!
Christ is risen, and the tomb is emptied of its dead;
For Christ, having risen from the dead,
Is become the first-fruits of those who have fallen asleep."

And so it seems clear that God freely gives us eternal life.

Daydreamer

Which shows you completely misunderstood the nature of his post. If you look at only ONE quote, you will come up with ONE interpretation. However, when you set quotes side by side as he did, you will see how they sometimes overlap and often conflict.

rainbow walking

yes, yes, pass the hat and don't get fat
Sing and laugh and shout and dance
just make sure its done in a trance
swab the deck and harp the poon
Jesus is coming back pretty damn soon