Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Friend · 11-05-2002, 11:39 AM

A friend and I got talking about evil and is it really something that exists. Our conclusion is that "evil" is more or less misguided love. In that someone loves _______ so they go and do it. Depending on who defines love, the action that person makes is either evil or good. Any thoughts?

~ Friend ~

Bree · 11-05-2002, 11:42 AM

"Greater good is halfway back to bad."

GeoTheo · 11-05-2002, 11:43 AM

It is the quality that causes one to be a white, Christian, male, heterosexual, Republican.

Bree · 11-05-2002, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by GeoTheo:
<strong>It is the quality that causes one to be a white, Christian, male, heterosexual, Republican.

</strong>

There you go, folks.

MadMordigan · 11-05-2002, 11:50 AM

'Evil' is a political word used to drum up support for the opposition of a person or behaviour one does not want to tolerate.

ImGod · 11-05-2002, 11:57 AM

Evil is an overused descriptor used to "demonize" objects, people, actions, ideas, ideologies, etc. with a single term. It’s typically used when people don't have the ability or time to develop a proper argument or provide a more detailed description of offending actions.

As an example:

1) Alcohol is evil.

Alcohol is a substance and is no more evil than the container that holds it. The descriptor Evil removes the mental image of any positives of alcohol consumption without accurately describing the negatives.

Hawkingfan · 11-05-2002, 12:27 PM

Even though I am an atheist and do not believe in God or Satan, I would recommend you read an interesting treatment of this topic as discussed in the (don't laugh) "Satanic Bible" by Anton LeVay. In the book's beginning, Mr. LeVay makes his case as to what makes a person satanic (bear with me as you will see wear I am going with this). Interestingly enough, his definition is very close to the definition as put forth by the Holy Bible. He says that if you are not a baptized, mind-changed, believer in Christ...then you are satanic. He goes on to say that this means the average Joe who doesn't give a damn either way is satanic, but that he just doesn't know it yet. Anyway, he goes on to say that everyone does evil, no matter who you are (Christian or non-Christian)--this is also in agreement with the Bible. Then, (breath) he goes on to say what it actually is that makes one evil (surprisingly it has nothing to do with Satan!) Here is what he says (paraphrased): Satanism (a word he will interchange with evil) comes from the worship of ONESELF. All of a person's evil comes from the fact that no matter who we are, our own SURVIVAL is what is most important to us. Scientifically, this SURVIVAL INSTINCT is where the trouble starts. For instance, evil deeds (such as any one of the seven deadly sins--greed, gluttony, avarice, etc.) come from PUTTING ONE'S SURVIVAL AHEAD OF THE SURVIVAL OF SOMEONE ELSE. And the reversal is true--goodness comes from PUTTING OTHER'S SURVIVAL AHEAD OF OUR OWN. Even though every evil act we do is not a "life or death" situation, our mind is still resorting to our animal instincts of reaffirming our own vitality. All selfish gratification comes from this instinct (rape, adultery, etc). Murder comes from this instinct. Stealing money comes from this instinct. Etc...I believe psychopaths operate by this instinct as well. This is also why the Satanist's most important holiday is his own birthday, not Halloween like some people will tell you (this is in the Satanic Bible). I hope this helps.

christ-on-a-stick · 11-05-2002, 12:47 PM

Interesting, I had this conversation recently with a (theistic) friend and was trying to explain that as far as I am concerned -

"Evil" is not a thing (i.e. a "force") but merely an adjective, and as such is purely subjective, much like the adjectives "beauty", "good" etc.

I've noticed that religious folk (fundy Xians in particular) use the word as a noun, as though evil is an actual force/entity that floats about the earth and works through people.

But they can never seem to explain to me (logically and without impugning their own Grand Poobah) where this force *comes from*. Hmmmmm....

Hawkingfan · 11-05-2002, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Psycho Economist:
<strong>Wow... further evidence that Satanists are religous: they're admittedly just selfish Christians. I'd say that unless you buy the N.T. assertion that selfishness is a necessary and sufficient condition of sinfulness, (if for example, you don't believe in "sin" as objectively real) then LeVay's argument is an unjustified leap.

That said, I'd agree that "evilness" is a subjective categorization, and not an actual trait that is possessed or not possessed by an object.</strong>

Satanism is not religious. It is simply the ongoing gratification of one's own natural desires in life without feeling guilty about them, something Christians do not do or teach. LeVay does not think of these acts as "evil" or a "sin" in the sense of a Christian. And nothing is "required" of a Satanist as far as anything remotely religious. I must not have made myself clear. But Levay is saying that whether you call it "real" or "imagined", the subjective "something" that evil is (as perceived by Christians and the average Joe's) is "one's very own naturalness". He still has made a good point. I think the concept of anything (fill in the blank) is "subjective".

Psycho Economist · 11-05-2002, 12:58 PM

Wow... further evidence that Satanists are religous: they're admittedly just selfish Christians. I'd say that unless you buy the N.T. assertion that selfishness is a necessary and sufficient condition of sinfulness, (if for example, you don't believe in "sin" as objectively real) then LeVay's argument is an unjustified leap.

That said, I'd agree that "evilness" is a subjective categorization, and not an actual trait that is possessed or not possessed by an object.

11-05-2002, 11:39 AM	#1
Friend Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: home Posts: 31	Evil. What is it? A friend and I got talking about evil and is it really something that exists. Our conclusion is that "evil" is more or less misguided love. In that someone loves _______ so they go and do it. Depending on who defines love, the action that person makes is either evil or good. Any thoughts? ~ Friend ~

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11-05-2002, 11:42 AM	#2
Bree Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Twin Cities, USA Posts: 3,197	"Greater good is halfway back to bad."

11-05-2002, 11:43 AM	#3
GeoTheo Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Bemidji Posts: 1,197	It is the quality that causes one to be a white, Christian, male, heterosexual, Republican.

11-05-2002, 11:50 AM	#5
MadMordigan Beloved Deceased Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 2,704	'Evil' is a political word used to drum up support for the opposition of a person or behaviour one does not want to tolerate.

11-05-2002, 11:57 AM	#6
ImGod Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Nebraska Posts: 6,264	Evil is an overused descriptor used to "demonize" objects, people, actions, ideas, ideologies, etc. with a single term. It’s typically used when people don't have the ability or time to develop a proper argument or provide a more detailed description of offending actions. As an example: 1) Alcohol is evil. Alcohol is a substance and is no more evil than the container that holds it. The descriptor Evil removes the mental image of any positives of alcohol consumption without accurately describing the negatives.

11-05-2002, 12:27 PM	#7
Hawkingfan Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 1,247	Even though I am an atheist and do not believe in God or Satan, I would recommend you read an interesting treatment of this topic as discussed in the (don't laugh) "Satanic Bible" by Anton LeVay. In the book's beginning, Mr. LeVay makes his case as to what makes a person satanic (bear with me as you will see wear I am going with this). Interestingly enough, his definition is very close to the definition as put forth by the Holy Bible. He says that if you are not a baptized, mind-changed, believer in Christ...then you are satanic. He goes on to say that this means the average Joe who doesn't give a damn either way is satanic, but that he just doesn't know it yet. Anyway, he goes on to say that everyone does evil, no matter who you are (Christian or non-Christian)--this is also in agreement with the Bible. Then, (breath) he goes on to say what it actually is that makes one evil (surprisingly it has nothing to do with Satan!) Here is what he says (paraphrased): Satanism (a word he will interchange with evil) comes from the worship of ONESELF. All of a person's evil comes from the fact that no matter who we are, our own SURVIVAL is what is most important to us. Scientifically, this SURVIVAL INSTINCT is where the trouble starts. For instance, evil deeds (such as any one of the seven deadly sins--greed, gluttony, avarice, etc.) come from PUTTING ONE'S SURVIVAL AHEAD OF THE SURVIVAL OF SOMEONE ELSE. And the reversal is true--goodness comes from PUTTING OTHER'S SURVIVAL AHEAD OF OUR OWN. Even though every evil act we do is not a "life or death" situation, our mind is still resorting to our animal instincts of reaffirming our own vitality. All selfish gratification comes from this instinct (rape, adultery, etc). Murder comes from this instinct. Stealing money comes from this instinct. Etc...I believe psychopaths operate by this instinct as well. This is also why the Satanist's most important holiday is his own birthday, not Halloween like some people will tell you (this is in the Satanic Bible). I hope this helps.

11-05-2002, 12:47 PM	#8
christ-on-a-stick Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Durango, Colorado Posts: 7,116	Interesting, I had this conversation recently with a (theistic) friend and was trying to explain that as far as I am concerned - "Evil" is not a thing (i.e. a "force") but merely an adjective, and as such is purely subjective, much like the adjectives "beauty", "good" etc. I've noticed that religious folk (fundy Xians in particular) use the word as a noun, as though evil is an actual force/entity that floats about the earth and works through people. But they can never seem to explain to me (logically and without impugning their own Grand Poobah) where this force comes from. Hmmmmm....

11-05-2002, 12:58 PM	#10
Psycho Economist Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Peoria, IL Posts: 854	Wow... further evidence that Satanists are religous: they're admittedly just selfish Christians. I'd say that unless you buy the N.T. assertion that selfishness is a necessary and sufficient condition of sinfulness, (if for example, you don't believe in "sin" as objectively real) then LeVay's argument is an unjustified leap. That said, I'd agree that "evilness" is a subjective categorization, and not an actual trait that is possessed or not possessed by an object.

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