Echo

Somewhere, in a land far, far away, a pot and a kettle are laughing.

Spirit Branded

So in this "home" where reason is supposed to prevail no one has the guts or persistence to deal with my post to David Payne point by point.

Throwing mud at me is not counter argument ... it merely reveals the poverty of the so called intellects in this place.

Who is tiresome? The secular mud thrower who abandons reason.

My case rests. My arguments stand unrefuted.

Blessings and Peace

Spirit Branded

YHWH666

"Throwing mud at me is not counter argument ... it merely reveals the poverty of the so called intellects in this place."

"So in this "home" where reason is supposed to prevail no one has the guts or persistence to deal with my post to David Payne point by point."

"SB
Apparently you have a fundamentalist emotional investment in believing the worst about God."

"Like many humanists you present opinions as fact with no support for your claim. "


"Like many humanists you present opinions as fact with no support for your claim. Do you have absolute scientific proof that God is a myth. I want to see it."

"Like so many atheists you assert opinions as facts without stopping to bother to give any support."
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Like so many cristains you use make absurd Ad hominem arguments to piss atheists off, and then chastise them for not producing an "absolute scientific proof " <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

ex-preacher

Just declare victory and go home.

I find the following assertion of yours laughable:
So you rule out the likelihood that the flood was a natural event and that the people of Israelf wrongly attributed it to God's anger. It sounds like your Bible education has derived from religious fundamentalism of the literalist kind, but bible belt crackpots in America are hardly representative of Christianity at large.

Wrongly attributed it? Have you read Genesis 6-9 lately? Or are you one these cafeteria Christians who selectively chooses which parts of the Bible are holy and which parts are wholly bunk? Please tell us your criteria for throwing out this passage? Is it because you are aware of the horrendous cruelty which it attributes to your loving god?

Did Jesus understand what the flood was all about when he spoke about it?

Did "Peter" understand it (1 Peter 3:20)?

Were they "bible belt crackpots" instead of enlightened liberals?

David M. Payne

In the interest of saving some bandwidth, I will post a general reply to Spirit Branded (SB).
First off let me say that I don’t think God is the biggest mass murder of all time, because as a myth, he/she/it is incapable of killing anyone. This of course is a defense that will be unavailable to (SB) and any other theists for obvious reasons. As a role model though, the myth of God has set a very bad example of what to do when people aren’t behaving as the omnipotent one wants them to. After all as one who has unlimited power to do anything he wishes to, he saw the “Corruption” of the people and thought, “what should I do?
Should I:
(A) Snap my fingers and make them behave correctly?
(B) Appear in front of them all at the same time and explain that their behavior is wrong and convince them to change their ways?
(C) Find some other imaginative method of convincing them of the error of their ways?
(D) Kill them all, by drowning them like one would drown a litter of kittens one has no use for, except for one family of course, for pissing me off?
I’ll take (D)
Hell of an example he set in your holy book SB. Of course later you appear to pick and chose which examples are true, and which are not in your argument here. How convenient for you.
As for the Muslim world denouncing Bin Laden and his ilk for their terrorism, sure they say that, what else can they say? But Islam is diametrically opposed to western thought, its religious beliefs and way of life. Like all religions it thinks “God” is on their side against the forces of the infidels, like us infidels here for instance. You see it one way SB, I see it another and I think logic is on my side in this view. As for the legitimacy of Bin Laden, Millions of Muslims support what he is doing, and that is part of the point of this little intellectual exercise. If you have enough support you can fight for your cause, right or wrong, forever. Let me give you a little personal view of what that kind of support can mean. As a marine in Vietnam I learned a lesson about what a small widespread base of support can mean to a diehard fanatical foe. If we had chosen to fight that war to its conclusion, we would still be there. (And no, I don’t think what we were doing there was justified now, but I did at the time.) If 10% of the population supports such activity as terrorism, the terrorists can fight forever, and as they gain the weapons of mass destruction they will use them. About that, the mass destruction and murder of innocents during the terrorist attacks of 9/11 should remove all doubts.
I think Pandora, Jack, TQM, phlebas and ex-preacher have answered many of your other points quite well, so no need for me to reiterate them here. As to my being an agnostic who doesn’t believe in your Abrahamic “God” I am guilty as charged, though I did conceive of a “God” <a href="http://www.secweb.org/asset.asp?AssetID=105" target="_blank">here,</a> but it wasn’t your “God” that’s for sure. I like the way you gloss over the idea that if the great flood was true, the fact remains that the innocent babies and children, who were with out sin, were murdered anyway by your Just and merciful “God”. Quite an example he set, and it’s an example some of his followers in religion follow to this day. Oh that’s right, you only believe the part of the bible you want to believe in, or are convenient for you to believe in, right? By the way there are plenty of people in all three religions who still swallow the teachings in the Bible, Qur’an and Talmud hook line and sinker. These people are the ones who provide a fertile breeding ground for the religious terrorists of today and tomorrow, and that is the great threat that religion presents us with, never ending war, leading to Armageddon or the Apocalypse. Take your pick here.
Lets cover a couple of other points and I can wrap up this post and wait for your intellectually scintillating reply. When I referred to “God” not directly involving himself in straightening out those that sin in his name, I mean directly, as in person. Just because one hears voices in his head telling him what to do doesn’t mean God is speaking to them, does it?
As for your last point, you know something, I think that the Bible Qur’an and Talmud all have some fine teachings in them. It’s the evil stuff also within that will bring humanity down. That said here is something for you to ponder. Who wrote these books? Man did. So for those who follow the good teachings found within these books, what are they following? They’re following the teachings of their fellow humans, not the teachings of some mythical being called “God”. As for your last point about the evil of poverty, well I did get into that quite heavily, <a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/features/2000/payne1.html" target="_blank">here</a> and I will revisit that subject from time to time in the future. So for now, let me wish you;

Logical analysis and a calm mind.

David

[ February 15, 2002: Message edited by: David Payne ]</p>

David M. Payne

Looks like Spirit Branded is unable to answer the bell. So now I stand un-refuted, huh SB? Too bad, just when it was getting interesting he ducks under the ropes and slinks off to his dressing room. Logic trumps superstition again.
Perhaps some of the other theists here will pick up the “terrible swift sword” and smite us unbelievers here. One can only hope that they really have the conviction of their religious beliefs. We will see.

[ February 18, 2002: Message edited by: David Payne ]</p>

David M. Payne

I ran this thread at the Clemson University skeptic’s web site and it is a hot topic there. Of course we have looked at this question several times here, so it isn't as new to us. Here is a link to it for anyone who is interested in seeing how that forum is doing. I think we should encourage the spread of atheist/agnostic/freethinker thoughts.
<a href="http://www.steelangel.com/skeptic/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17" target="_blank">http://www.steelangel.com/skeptic/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17</a>
SB, where are you? Surely you can step up to the plate on the post above, can't you?

Thor Q. Mada

This thread was about god being the biggest mass-murderer in history. Of-course since god is our creation, it is actually mankind who is the biggest mass murderer in history, and more specifically the catholic church who still today with their stance against contraception is responsible for children being born in abysmal poverty, as well as for the spread of aids.
Philippines, Africa, South America, name it, wherever there is an uneducated gullible public.
I also don't like receiving uninvited blessings from somebody obviously suffering from a delusion.

David M. Payne

Yes some humans are the real mass murders, no doubt about that. But if you read the thread carefully you will see that it is a rhetorical question that is directed at those who believe in this god, or as I call him, “He who does not exist”. The theists here and elsewhere don’t like to get into this debate, as it isn’t an exercise in hair splitting, but a straight forward look at the biggest flaw in religion, at least as far as I’m concerned. How can anyone worship a god that is supposedly omnipotent, (Ie able to do anything) and yet chooses to murder almost all the human race because they annoyed him with their corruption? Beats me how so many people can be so blind to the fallacies of their own religions. As a kid in bible school (Mormon and later catholic) I was amazed that my classmates fell for this stuff. I’m still amazed at the naivety of so many intelligent people still falling for this con game. But as long as the masses keep falling for the con, we will see more 9/11’s and religious wars happening, and that is really depressing.
As for the poverty created by religions that oppose birth control and family planning, well it isn’t just the Catholic Church that is opposed is it? But if you look at it from the religion biz point of view, it makes sense. What makes any religion strong? Total number of members. So of course the more power hungry religions will oppose birth control and give us some mumbo jumbo about the will of god, the sanctity of life, sex being only for reproduction, yada, yada, yada. Religion is a numbers game, the more members you have, the more power you have. The rest of the mumbo jumbo is a smoke screen to fool those members that may take a deeper look at what is going on in the name of religion. It sure is working on an awful lot of people.

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

All,

A quick heads up:

It is impossible for God to commit murder.

murder:to kill (a human being) unlawfully and with premeditated malice
-Webster's Dictionary

In judging God one must also acknowledge the implications of His existence...namely He IS the law and has absolute authority to wield it.

As such it is impossible for God to do something 'unlawful'...ie murder.

Thoughts and comments welcomed,


Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas