Freethought & Rationalism Archive

jfryejr · 08-17-2003, 12:14 PM

Assume God exists as Yaweh, Allah, or some derivation there of. Do you think he could kill himself? (other than in the Xstian form as Jr.)

For me, it seems that if you think he can't, then he's not all powerful; if you think he can, I don't think the thread goes anywhere after someone simply writes yes...

Any thoughts? of consequences to the Universe? Would it matter at all?

Santas little helper · 08-17-2003, 12:49 PM

Yes, I think God being all powerful could kill him himself.

As for the consequences it's hard to tell.It depends on what extent you assume
God is necessary for the proper functioning of the universe, human understanding
etc.

The way Christian religion sees things God is by definition Truth.Probably the same
goes for Beauty although I'm not quite sure.It seems sensible anyway.
So without God there could be no Truth and no Beauty.I guess God could arrange for
the universe to still work in some mechanical manner but without Truth and Beauty
the whole universe would be hell.Literally !

Philosoft · 08-17-2003, 07:34 PM

More like EoG...

Tenek · 08-17-2003, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Santas little helper
Yes, I think God being all powerful could kill him himself.

As for the consequences it's hard to tell.It depends on what extent you assume
God is necessary for the proper functioning of the universe, human understanding
etc.

The way Christian religion sees things God is by definition Truth.Probably the same
goes for Beauty although I'm not quite sure.It seems sensible anyway.
So without God there could be no Truth and no Beauty.I guess God could arrange for
the universe to still work in some mechanical manner but without Truth and Beauty
the whole universe would be hell.Literally !

Is there in truth no beauty? :P

I don't think any being worthy of the title "God" would design a broken universe. My computer runs just fine when the designers aren't around. It will eventually break. So will the universe, to an extent... but the nonexistence of God should have no effect on it.

Magus55 · 08-17-2003, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jfryejr
Assume God exists as Yaweh, Allah, or some derivation there of. Do you think he could kill himself? (other than in the Xstian form as Jr.)

For me, it seems that if you think he can't, then he's not all powerful; if you think he can, I don't think the thread goes anywhere after someone simply writes yes...

Any thoughts? of consequences to the Universe? Would it matter at all?

No God cannot kill himself. First of all, suicide is a sin, and God can't commit a sin. And second, if God could kill himself, then He isn't eternal, and if he's not eternal, he is not Almighty, in which case he isn't God.

This doesn't mean he isn't omnipotent, but omnipotence does have bounds. A paradox can't exist, even for God.

Thomas Metcalf · 08-17-2003, 10:03 PM

God cannot commit suicide because God exists necessarily, according to a very popular form of apologetic monotheism. God is also immortal and eternal.

The fact that God cannot perform the logically possible action "to commit suicide," or bring about the logically possible state of affairs "someone autonomously commits suicide," indicates that he is not omnipotent. It is possible to imagine a more powerful being, one who can commit suicide. Therefore, God is not maximally powerful, and maximal power is a necessary condition for omnipotence.

Weltall · 08-17-2003, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55

This doesn't mean he isn't omnipotent, but omnipotence does have bounds. A paradox can't exist, even for God.

Omnipotence, omniscience, omnibenevolence... you give god these attributes, right? If so, his existence is a paradox in and of itself.

winstonjen · 08-17-2003, 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
No God cannot kill himself. First of all, suicide is a sin, and God can't commit a sin. And second, if God could kill himself, then He isn't eternal, and if he's not eternal, he is not Almighty, in which case he isn't God.

Magus, listen to your previous posts. Did your memory go with your logic? You keep saying that anything is not a sin if god does it.

SignOfTheCross · 08-18-2003, 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Thomas Metcalf
God cannot commit suicide because God exists necessarily, according to a very popular form of apologetic monotheism. God is also immortal and eternal.

The fact that God cannot perform the logically possible action "to commit suicide," or bring about the logically possible state of affairs "someone autonomously commits suicide," indicates that he is not omnipotent. It is possible to imagine a more powerful being, one who can commit suicide. Therefore, God is not maximally powerful, and maximal power is a necessary condition for omnipotence.

This sounds a lot like the "can God create a rock He can't lift" arguement, and we all know that one leads to nothing.

Peace,
SOTC

Dominus Paradoxum · 08-18-2003, 10:05 AM

God can kill himself if he does not necessarily exist. Nothing necessarily exists because existence is not a predicate. Therefore God, being an omnipotent being could kill himself.

08-17-2003, 12:14 PM	#1
jfryejr Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 764	Can God kill himself? Assume God exists as Yaweh, Allah, or some derivation there of. Do you think he could kill himself? (other than in the Xstian form as Jr.) For me, it seems that if you think he can't, then he's not all powerful; if you think he can, I don't think the thread goes anywhere after someone simply writes yes... Any thoughts? of consequences to the Universe? Would it matter at all?

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08-17-2003, 12:49 PM	#2
Santas little helper Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Above the ground Posts: 1,050	Yes, I think God being all powerful could kill him himself. As for the consequences it's hard to tell.It depends on what extent you assume God is necessary for the proper functioning of the universe, human understanding etc. The way Christian religion sees things God is by definition Truth.Probably the same goes for Beauty although I'm not quite sure.It seems sensible anyway. So without God there could be no Truth and no Beauty.I guess God could arrange for the universe to still work in some mechanical manner but without Truth and Beauty the whole universe would be hell.Literally !

08-17-2003, 07:34 PM	#3
Philosoft Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Southeast of disorder Posts: 6,829	More like EoG...

08-17-2003, 10:03 PM	#6
Thomas Metcalf Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Boulder, CO Posts: 1,009	God cannot commit suicide because God exists necessarily, according to a very popular form of apologetic monotheism. God is also immortal and eternal. The fact that God cannot perform the logically possible action "to commit suicide," or bring about the logically possible state of affairs "someone autonomously commits suicide," indicates that he is not omnipotent. It is possible to imagine a more powerful being, one who can commit suicide. Therefore, God is not maximally powerful, and maximal power is a necessary condition for omnipotence.

08-18-2003, 10:05 AM	#10
Dominus Paradoxum Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: California Posts: 1,000	God can kill himself if he does not necessarily exist. Nothing necessarily exists because existence is not a predicate. Therefore God, being an omnipotent being could kill himself.

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