Freethought & Rationalism Archive

trekbette · 06-10-2003, 10:19 AM

This is a ordinance that was passes by the LA City Council. Here's the article in the LA Times.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la...nes-california

I am writing a letter to the editor against this ordinance. Ideas, comments?

*Note to moderators, I went to the reprint section of the LA Times website and it says it's okay to post this for personal use.

CuriosityKills · 06-10-2003, 12:16 PM

trekbette,

I tried to open the story, but I am not a 'registered user'.

also, why are you writing a letter against this ordinance. What are your ideas?

The Other Michael · 06-10-2003, 01:23 PM

trekbette, it doesn't open for me either.

Why don't you make a post with the text of the article, along with the quote (or a link to the section) from the paper OKing reprints?

Thanks,
Michael
MF&P Moderator (Maximus)

bocajeff · 06-10-2003, 07:38 PM

As a male Angeleno who has been known to frequent a strip club or 5, this news upsets me. Why does the city care what goes on strip clubs? All we need is more morality legislation in this country.

Although I kind of like that one part of the ordinace that bans tipping

trekbette · 06-10-2003, 09:46 PM

Panel approves a ban on lap dancing, any other contact between patrons and entertainers. Adult businesses say measure is unconstitutional.

By Matea Gold, Times Staff Writer

Lap dancing and entertaining in private "VIP rooms" would be banned at Los Angeles strip clubs under an ordinance approved Monday by a City Council's committee.

If approved by the City Council and mayor, the ordinance also would prohibit direct tipping and any physical contact between strippers and customers. It would require them to remain at least six feet apart.

"This will clean up the industry," said Councilwoman Cindy Miscikowski, chairwoman of the council's Public Safety Committee, who proposed the measure aimed at curbing prostitution and other crime associated with the clubs.

But the ordinance was immediately criticized by representatives of adult businesses as unconstitutional.

"Do we want a society where we're so controlled that we cannot do anything at all, that we can't move in one direction or another?" asked Roger Jon Diamond, a Santa Monica attorney who represents about 25 adult clubs in Los Angeles and who compared the law with prohibitions enacted by the Taliban in Afghanistan.

"What is the city next going to do, say you can't go to a teacher to be taught ballroom dancing?" Diamond asked.

Under the new law, club owners would have to renew their police permits annually to ensure that they had not violated any regulations. A violator of the measure, which includes civil and criminal provisions, would face a $2,500 fine and six months in jail.

Local ordinances outlawing so-called lap dancing have fared poorly in state courts. In 1999, the state's 4th Appellate District overturned an Anaheim ordinance on the basis that the law was preempted by the state penal code, which outlaws prostitution and lewd conduct.

Los Angeles Deputy City Atty. Asha Greenberg said that although the city expects adult businesses to fight the measure, she is confident that the new law will not be overturned. She said that, in 1998, the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals upheld a local ordinance in Washington state that requires dancers to stay 10 feet from patrons.

"We have tried to research the law and support everything we put in it," she said.

The proposed ordinance was cheered by residents who have complained that the activity inside strip clubs spills into their neighborhoods.

A West Los Angeles resident, Cristi Walden, said six adult businesses have opened in her neighborhood in the last 10 years, including two clubs with total nudity, all within a radius of three-quarters of a mile. In the last few months, police have made six prostitution arrests in the area, she said. Neighbors regularly find used condoms near the clubs and witness public sex.

"It's ridiculous," Walden said. "People have just had it."

But industry lobbyists and strippers said the measure would cripple the industry by prohibiting the most lucrative activity at the clubs. On Monday morning, dancers from a North Hollywood nude club told the Public Safety Committee that they make the bulk of their money from lap dances and entertaining customers in private rooms.

"Solely being on stage on a platform, I would not survive," said a 36-year-old stripper and actor, who asked that her name not be published for fear that disclosure would hurt her ability to get other jobs.

"I hope this doesn't go into effect, because I don't know what I'd do," she said.

A 23-year-old dancer told the council committee that the six-foot rule would make the environment "very impersonal."

"I can put on one heck of a show, let me tell you," said the stripper, who also did not want to be identified. "I'm fabulous But it's not going to give me revenue."

She insisted that activity inside the club is limited to "hugs." One of her customers, an 85-year-old widower, comes in several times a month and lies down with her on a bed in the VIP room, she said.

"We cuddle," she said. "You should be able to reach out to somebody when they're needy."

There are currently few restrictions on adult businesses in Los Angeles. Clubs that have full nudity cannot serve alcohol, and there are regulations about how close a venue can be to a school or playground.

But officials said they have been unable to curb illegal activities inside the clubs, because those activities take place in private rooms.

"It's gotten to the point where the police are saying there's blatant prostitution" in the strip clubs, Greenberg said.

Among other measures, the law would eliminate private rooms and require the presence of a full-time manager and security guard at all times.

Undercover officers could make an arrest if they see a dancer sit on a patron's lap.

Representatives of the adult business industry argued that the city should seek to regulate the clubs through zoning laws, not by restricting behavior inside the club.

Lobbyist Steve Afriat, representing a chain of eight clubs, told the Public Safety Committee that it would be opening a Pandora's box with the new law.

"I would question whether this City Council really wants to go down a path of regulating what takes place inside," he said.

I wrote out a rough draft highlighting the problems with this including the fact that it unfairly punishes the employees of the clubs, the fact that it will increase prostitution, questioning who will pay for the enforcement of this law.

I ended with a rather inflammatory statement-- if you want to get rid of whores, outlaw professional politicians.

Toto · 06-11-2003, 12:33 AM

The link works if you register with the LA Times. Registration is free.

This is not a moral issue, it is a land use issue. As cited in the article, the objections to the clubs are not the sexual conduct per se but the effects on the neighbors.

Quote:

Neighbors regularly find used condoms near the clubs and witness public sex.

"It's ridiculous," Walden said. "People have just had it."

The adult entertainment industry needs to invest in good neighborhood relations if they want to do business.

trekbette · 06-11-2003, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Toto
The adult entertainment industry needs to invest in good neighborhood relations if they want to do business.

Agreed. But the City Council should deal with that specific area instead of punishing the entire industry.

Viti · 06-11-2003, 06:50 PM

Physical contact is prohibited in most states...even here in Las Vegas. It happens, but girls have been arrested.

beastmaster · 06-11-2003, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Toto
This is not a moral issue, it is a land use issue. As cited in the article, the objections to the clubs are not the sexual conduct per se but the effects on the neighbors.

If it was just about public nuisance issues, then they would simply zone for lap dancing, not outlaw it entirely. This is about regulating personal morality.

trillian · 06-12-2003, 02:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by beastmaster
If it was just about public nuisance issues, then they would simply zone for lap dancing, not outlaw it entirely. This is about regulating personal morality.

I fully agree with Beastmaster-

How does close physical contact, or even indoor prostitution affect the neighbors? I don't get it.

Outdoor sex=illegal and should be.

Condoms strewn around the area=littering and perhaps a health hazard, also already illegal.

Married men who can't keep their dick in their pants=personal issue.

What they should do is legalize all of it, take the tax revenue and build a nice park for the kiddies. Hire extra police to prevent hard drug trafficking in the area and to make sure kids don't get in.

Now, if all this was done, would the neighbors have any legal reason to complain other than they just don't want an "ill repute" it's-against-my-wittle-morals business in their backyards??

This sounds to me like another one of those "voter friendly" issues with little other basis than the next election.

trillian

06-10-2003, 10:19 AM	#1
trekbette Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Torrance, CA Posts: 533	New ordinance prohibits touching strippers This is a ordinance that was passes by the LA City Council. Here's the article in the LA Times. http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la...nes-california I am writing a letter to the editor against this ordinance. Ideas, comments? *Note to moderators, I went to the reprint section of the LA Times website and it says it's okay to post this for personal use.

06-10-2003, 09:46 PM	#5
trekbette Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Torrance, CA Posts: 533	Sorry, here's the text of the article Panel approves a ban on lap dancing, any other contact between patrons and entertainers. Adult businesses say measure is unconstitutional. By Matea Gold, Times Staff Writer Lap dancing and entertaining in private "VIP rooms" would be banned at Los Angeles strip clubs under an ordinance approved Monday by a City Council's committee. If approved by the City Council and mayor, the ordinance also would prohibit direct tipping and any physical contact between strippers and customers. It would require them to remain at least six feet apart. "This will clean up the industry," said Councilwoman Cindy Miscikowski, chairwoman of the council's Public Safety Committee, who proposed the measure aimed at curbing prostitution and other crime associated with the clubs. But the ordinance was immediately criticized by representatives of adult businesses as unconstitutional. "Do we want a society where we're so controlled that we cannot do anything at all, that we can't move in one direction or another?" asked Roger Jon Diamond, a Santa Monica attorney who represents about 25 adult clubs in Los Angeles and who compared the law with prohibitions enacted by the Taliban in Afghanistan. "What is the city next going to do, say you can't go to a teacher to be taught ballroom dancing?" Diamond asked. Under the new law, club owners would have to renew their police permits annually to ensure that they had not violated any regulations. A violator of the measure, which includes civil and criminal provisions, would face a $2,500 fine and six months in jail. Local ordinances outlawing so-called lap dancing have fared poorly in state courts. In 1999, the state's 4th Appellate District overturned an Anaheim ordinance on the basis that the law was preempted by the state penal code, which outlaws prostitution and lewd conduct. Los Angeles Deputy City Atty. Asha Greenberg said that although the city expects adult businesses to fight the measure, she is confident that the new law will not be overturned. She said that, in 1998, the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals upheld a local ordinance in Washington state that requires dancers to stay 10 feet from patrons. "We have tried to research the law and support everything we put in it," she said. The proposed ordinance was cheered by residents who have complained that the activity inside strip clubs spills into their neighborhoods. A West Los Angeles resident, Cristi Walden, said six adult businesses have opened in her neighborhood in the last 10 years, including two clubs with total nudity, all within a radius of three-quarters of a mile. In the last few months, police have made six prostitution arrests in the area, she said. Neighbors regularly find used condoms near the clubs and witness public sex. "It's ridiculous," Walden said. "People have just had it." But industry lobbyists and strippers said the measure would cripple the industry by prohibiting the most lucrative activity at the clubs. On Monday morning, dancers from a North Hollywood nude club told the Public Safety Committee that they make the bulk of their money from lap dances and entertaining customers in private rooms. "Solely being on stage on a platform, I would not survive," said a 36-year-old stripper and actor, who asked that her name not be published for fear that disclosure would hurt her ability to get other jobs. "I hope this doesn't go into effect, because I don't know what I'd do," she said. A 23-year-old dancer told the council committee that the six-foot rule would make the environment "very impersonal." "I can put on one heck of a show, let me tell you," said the stripper, who also did not want to be identified. "I'm fabulous But it's not going to give me revenue." She insisted that activity inside the club is limited to "hugs." One of her customers, an 85-year-old widower, comes in several times a month and lies down with her on a bed in the VIP room, she said. "We cuddle," she said. "You should be able to reach out to somebody when they're needy." There are currently few restrictions on adult businesses in Los Angeles. Clubs that have full nudity cannot serve alcohol, and there are regulations about how close a venue can be to a school or playground. But officials said they have been unable to curb illegal activities inside the clubs, because those activities take place in private rooms. "It's gotten to the point where the police are saying there's blatant prostitution" in the strip clubs, Greenberg said. Among other measures, the law would eliminate private rooms and require the presence of a full-time manager and security guard at all times. Undercover officers could make an arrest if they see a dancer sit on a patron's lap. Representatives of the adult business industry argued that the city should seek to regulate the clubs through zoning laws, not by restricting behavior inside the club. Lobbyist Steve Afriat, representing a chain of eight clubs, told the Public Safety Committee that it would be opening a Pandora's box with the new law. "I would question whether this City Council really wants to go down a path of regulating what takes place inside," he said. I wrote out a rough draft highlighting the problems with this including the fact that it unfairly punishes the employees of the clubs, the fact that it will increase prostitution, questioning who will pay for the enforcement of this law. I ended with a rather inflammatory statement-- if you want to get rid of whores, outlaw professional politicians.

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06-10-2003, 12:16 PM	#2
CuriosityKills Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Edmonton, AB, Canada Posts: 114	trekbette, I tried to open the story, but I am not a 'registered user'. also, why are you writing a letter against this ordinance. What are your ideas?

06-10-2003, 01:23 PM	#3
The Other Michael Honorary Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: In the fog of San Francisco Posts: 12,631	trekbette, it doesn't open for me either. Why don't you make a post with the text of the article, along with the quote (or a link to the section) from the paper OKing reprints? Thanks, Michael MF&P Moderator (Maximus)

06-10-2003, 07:38 PM	#4
bocajeff Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: HelL.A. Posts: 1,157	As a male Angeleno who has been known to frequent a strip club or 5, this news upsets me. Why does the city care what goes on strip clubs? All we need is more morality legislation in this country. Although I kind of like that one part of the ordinace that bans tipping

06-11-2003, 06:50 PM	#8
Viti Contributor Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Down South Posts: 12,879	Physical contact is prohibited in most states...even here in Las Vegas. It happens, but girls have been arrested.

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