Freethought & Rationalism Archive

zootwoman · 03-14-2002, 01:10 PM

self abuse is immoral whether it's excessive use of drugs, misuse of drugs, gluttony, abusive sex, or self mutilation. There is degree and kind, but abuse is abuse.

JL · 03-14-2002, 01:13 PM

Siren wrote:

Quote:

To me, drugs are wrong...period. I know I sound like a d.a.r.e commercial, but that's honestly how I feel.
Ok, even more blunt honesty follows...
I also disagree with alchohol of any kind as well.

Thank you! I don't agree with you but your consistency with the inclusion of alcohol is refreshing. I can respect such a stance.

To answer the question, no I don't think illegal drug use is immoral in itself, but rather as has already been said the circumstances involved can make it so.

I would say things like LSD, 'shrooms, peyote and ecstasy may have even made me a more moral person.

echidna · 03-14-2002, 01:51 PM

Yep, we�ve had this one many times before, but it�s always good to bring it up again.

I playfully try & imagine a world where ecstasy and marijuana were legal and nicotine and alcohol were illegal. Little drug stores happily sell pills and joynts, with the government profitably taxing their cut. Regular users walk around hugging each other, albeit a little dazed. But at illicit parties, shady dealers trade in alcohol and tobacco,

While the libertarian radicals cry for their legalisation, conservatives would protest :
1. But alcohol would cause massive road trauma
2. But alcohol would cause massive domestic and crowd violence
3. But nicotine causes massive health costs

I think in many ways it would be harder to legalise our current drugs than to legalise some of our lighter drugs.

That said, I have had contact with junkies, and heroin is still one drug which I am nervous of ... but I still strongly favour legalised injecting room trials.

SirenSpeak and other fellow puritans, FWIW I�ve just never really seen the point in drugs. My own experiences with them & observations of people under the influence simply don�t appeal to me. We�re given such a short time here, it just seems a waste not to try & take full appreciation of the time we�re got.

But that�s just my personal choice. Then again, maybe it�s also a waste not to try everything as well.

tronvillain · 03-14-2002, 02:14 PM

Personally, I don't believe the use of illegal drugs other than marijuana to be immoral, though I don't even use legal drugs. Of course, I don't believe suicide or self-inflicted damage to be immoral either.

Malaclypse the Younger · 03-14-2002, 02:17 PM

See <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=52&t=000081" target="_blank">A Subjectivist Ethical Analysis of Drug Use</a>

Malaclypse the Younger · 03-14-2002, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by zootwoman:
self abuse is immoral whether it's excessive use of drugs, misuse of drugs, gluttony, abusive sex, or self mutilation. There is degree and kind, but abuse is abuse.

One person's self-abuse is another's good clean fun... and yet another's arrest for indecent exposure.

[ March 14, 2002: Message edited by: Malaclypse the Younger ]

livius drusus · 03-14-2002, 02:49 PM

The only reason morality is even an issue with illegal drug use is because it is against the law and most people are accustomed to associating legality with morality. Siren, do you believe taking drugs as prescribed by a doctor is immoral? I would imagine not.

What, then, is the difference between a someone taking Ritalin (i.e., Speed) to overcome their inability to focus and someone taking Ecstasy to overcome their inability to express emotion? I know people who have crippling cluster headaches for whom all prescription drugs have failed, but one 4 hour mushroom trip every few months and they are completely free of pain. Are they immoral for eating a fungus solely because the government has deemed this particular fungus BAD?

The distinction between legal substances which alter brain chemistry and illegal substances which do the same is just a stamp of official approval. The reasons certain things are approved by authority are random, inconsistent, and in some cases downright wrong.

In my view, it is the drug laws which are immoral, not the drugs or the use of them. That's why every time a spark a fat one, or spend a golden night of emotional fulfillment in my lover's arms courtesy of Ecstasy, I am in fact taking an eminently moral stand.

Pseudonymph · 03-14-2002, 03:09 PM

Koy...just a side note,your observations were some of the most interesting I have ever read...seriously. A lot of things I hadnt thought about before.

Quote:

It's a natural process as old as the hills to want to alter one's consciousness and we're by no means the only animals on the planet that do so.

I'm not so sure about that, to be honest. there may be other animals that do things similar. but I seriously doubt they do it for the same reasons as humans.

Quote:

In fact, it's unavoidable and happens constantly throughout just about ever minute you are alive. Sirenspeak is a drug addict just as we all are, since without drugs (chemicals) none of us would be alive or cognitively processing information.

A drug is defined as a substance wich alters one's natural processes. For example, we all have endorphins, which posess analgesic properties, of course. These, while they may have drug like effects, are not drugs in essence because they are naturally occuring and produced by the body. Same goes for serotonin, which is actually a neurotransmitter, but you get the idea.

I personally dont use medication of any kind that my body dosent naturally provide. When I get sick, I go to the doctor to make sure it isnt something serious, it never is. Then he gives medication, and I never get it filled. Then I get better naturally, in a few days.

Since I've started doing this...about 4 years ago, I rarely get sick. Once a year is pushing it. The human body evolved to be able to overcome illness on its own. Why fight that with artificial drugs, when it isnt necessary?

I realize that there are many problems that do require medicine, like aids and cancer etc... thats why I go to the doc, to make sure that nothing serious is wrong. But for everyday problems, I just let the body do it's job.

Quote:

That Sprite, for example, that SirenSpeak clings to is loaded with sugar that not just alters her mood and her consciousness (the manner in which she processes external/internal stimuli), but throws her entire body chemistry so far out of whack that it has to go into overdrive to segregate out the influx of sugar and store it as fat as soon as it is possible lest she go into a sugar coma and, possibly, die.

Yes, you are correct, sugar does alter one's state of mind. I can't really argue with this, however, I have never felt the need to have more sugar. Or have a sugar rush. This is the same reason I dont drink coffee. Because I dont like hearing people talk about how they must have thier coffee or they cant focus.
And sugar dosent affect the way I think.(nothing I can tell anyway.) And I am defninently not a sugar addict...I can stop anytime I want...really!
heh

Quote:

Frankly, to regulate against any form of mind altering substance (one of the largest misnomers known, BTW) is what is immoral, IMO.

Actually, I agree with this. As Bill Hicks has said, it's not war on drugs, it's a war on personal freedom.
I wish law enforcement would spend time chasing afer real criminals, then waste time with someone who just wants to get high.
So yes, I think you make a good point there.

Quote:

But I would hope you will look at your bookshelf one day or stroll through a museum some time and consider all of the positive aspects to certain "consciousness expanding" drugs that you are never told about, because our society has the emotional and intellectual maturity of an eight year old boy.

I can totally see your point here...undoubtedly many great artists are influenced by...influences. But, for the same reasons as I dont think antidepressants are a good idea, I as an artist(musician) like the fact when people compliment my work, I can say that I didnt require any artificial stimuli.

And as for anti depressants, I like that when I come out of a certain depressing time of my life, I like being able to tell myself that I did it all with only things like family and friends helping. And my own Grit.

I actually don't believe in things like "mental disorders." Manic depressant? did that exist 30 years ago? nope. When people were depressed they just dealt with it. No prozac then, and we got by fine. The only exceptions are people who have obvious mental problems, like retardation etc.

We live in a society that wants to be catered to, a pill for this, a pill for that. Depression is no exception.

Not to say that I havent struggled with difficult times. I have in fact. And it also led to something of an addiction that didnt involve any chemical substance. That part of my life is behind me now though.

I think my way of thinking is why atheism appeals to me. I like being independant. Not relying on "God" or medicine, or anything but what I have here with me.

This concludes this brief glimpse into my life.

[ March 14, 2002: Message edited by: SirenSpeak ]

Pseudonymph · 03-14-2002, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by christ-on-a-stick:


BTW... Siren... do you drink coffee or caffeinated sodas?

No I do not...as of a few years ago. Its been great. I always drink water, except when I'm at a restaurant or party. Then it's sprite. Restaurant water tastes like ass. so does tap water

never been there · 03-14-2002, 04:18 PM

I just get a bit pissy about cocaine and steroids. I have met a few people who can do cocaine without inducing homocidal rage in me, but they're rare.

Those two drugs make most people simply intolerable.

As far as LSD, etc., it IS a shame that the "drugs are dangerous" propaganda prevents a rational explanation of the risks and how to minimize them.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

03-14-2002, 01:10 PM	#11
zootwoman Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: austin, Texas Posts: 12	self abuse is immoral whether it's excessive use of drugs, misuse of drugs, gluttony, abusive sex, or self mutilation. There is degree and kind, but abuse is abuse.

03-14-2002, 01:51 PM	#13
echidna Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 2,832	Yep, we�ve had this one many times before, but it�s always good to bring it up again. I playfully try & imagine a world where ecstasy and marijuana were legal and nicotine and alcohol were illegal. Little drug stores happily sell pills and joynts, with the government profitably taxing their cut. Regular users walk around hugging each other, albeit a little dazed. But at illicit parties, shady dealers trade in alcohol and tobacco, While the libertarian radicals cry for their legalisation, conservatives would protest : 1. But alcohol would cause massive road trauma 2. But alcohol would cause massive domestic and crowd violence 3. But nicotine causes massive health costs I think in many ways it would be harder to legalise our current drugs than to legalise some of our lighter drugs. That said, I have had contact with junkies, and heroin is still one drug which I am nervous of ... but I still strongly favour legalised injecting room trials. SirenSpeak and other fellow puritans, FWIW I�ve just never really seen the point in drugs. My own experiences with them & observations of people under the influence simply don�t appeal to me. We�re given such a short time here, it just seems a waste not to try & take full appreciation of the time we�re got. But that�s just my personal choice. Then again, maybe it�s also a waste not to try everything as well.

03-14-2002, 02:14 PM	#14
tronvillain Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 5,658	Personally, I don't believe the use of illegal drugs other than marijuana to be immoral, though I don't even use legal drugs. Of course, I don't believe suicide or self-inflicted damage to be immoral either.

03-14-2002, 02:17 PM	#15
Malaclypse the Younger Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: nowhere Posts: 416	See <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=52&t=000081" target="_blank">A Subjectivist Ethical Analysis of Drug Use</a>

03-14-2002, 02:49 PM	#17
livius drusus Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Selva Oscura Posts: 4,120	The only reason morality is even an issue with illegal drug use is because it is against the law and most people are accustomed to associating legality with morality. Siren, do you believe taking drugs as prescribed by a doctor is immoral? I would imagine not. What, then, is the difference between a someone taking Ritalin (i.e., Speed) to overcome their inability to focus and someone taking Ecstasy to overcome their inability to express emotion? I know people who have crippling cluster headaches for whom all prescription drugs have failed, but one 4 hour mushroom trip every few months and they are completely free of pain. Are they immoral for eating a fungus solely because the government has deemed this particular fungus BAD? The distinction between legal substances which alter brain chemistry and illegal substances which do the same is just a stamp of official approval. The reasons certain things are approved by authority are random, inconsistent, and in some cases downright wrong. In my view, it is the drug laws which are immoral, not the drugs or the use of them. That's why every time a spark a fat one, or spend a golden night of emotional fulfillment in my lover's arms courtesy of Ecstasy, I am in fact taking an eminently moral stand.

03-14-2002, 04:18 PM	#20
never been there Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Winnipeg, MB Posts: 2,144	I just get a bit pissy about cocaine and steroids. I have met a few people who can do cocaine without inducing homocidal rage in me, but they're rare. Those two drugs make most people simply intolerable. As far as LSD, etc., it IS a shame that the "drugs are dangerous" propaganda prevents a rational explanation of the risks and how to minimize them.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.