Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Koyaanisqatsi · 02-19-2002, 07:26 AM

He killed my father...

agapeo · 02-19-2002, 09:04 AM

[I'M SO F-ING TIRED OF THIS NONSENSE!]

Take two aspirins. Lay down for a nap and I assure you'll feel better when you wake up!
<img src="graemlins/boohoo.gif" border="0" alt="[Boo Hoo]" />

MadKally · 02-19-2002, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Koyaanisqatsi:
I'M SO F-ING TIRED OF THIS NONSENSE!

Some jackass thousands of years ago comes along and says, "Hey, did you know everything was created by U#:LKJE:LJSD?" And now we're all here trying to justify why we don't believe in U#:LKJE:LJSD, as if we have any obligation whatsoever to address such a stupid issue simply because some jackass thousands of years ago came along and said, "Hey, did you know everything was created by U#:LKJE:LJSD?"

U#:LKJE:LJSD does not and never has existed. This is not a question. This is an irrefutable fact. Because someone said U#:LKJE:LJSD exists means absolutely nothing.

Let's all repeat that. Because someone said U#:LKJE:LJSD exists means absolutely nothing.

No one--and I mean absolutely no living or dead human being to have ever existed--needs to say anything at all regarding U#:LKJE:LJSD's existence other than the jackass who first made such a fictional creature up.

Is that clear now? U#:LKJE:LJSD is made up; pretend; fictional; not-real; never-real; never-can-be-real.

So, either you believe U#:LKJE:LJSD
is real based on nothing but your own, personal wish-fulfillment fantasy or you don't.

If you don't, you are under absolutely no obligation whatsoever to explain why you don't believe a fictional (made up; pretend; not-real; never-real; never-can-be-real) character in a myth doesn't factually exist!

Fictional creatures don't exist. This isn't open to debate or conjecture or contemplation; it is an extant fact. Fictional creatures do not exist.

For anyone to come along and say, "U#:LKJE:LJSD exists," is to make a positive claim that requires some form of compelling evidence to prove.

If I say, "U#:LKJE:LJSD does not exist," no matter how you slice it, it is not a positive claim; indeed, it is the exact opposite. It is the observation of extant fact and requires nothing further. It is, at best, a tautology; at worst a redundancy, akin to saying, "That which does not exist, does not exist," or, "Fictional creatures don't exist."

It is the fallacy of post hoc, ergo propter hoc (literally, "after this, therefore because of this") and it is not valid.

Let's repeat that too. It is not valid.

So, does everyone get that now? Fictional creatures do not exist. To state, "I agree that fictional creatures do not exist" is to be what others here have termed a "strong" atheist, when in actuality, all they are are intelligent people needlessly affirming the extant facts of existence.

To state, "I disagree that fictional creatures do not exist," is to be what everyone calls a theist.

Up until this point, the theist and atheist are equals. It is only when the theist takes it one step over the ledge by then stating, "Further, I assert fictional creatures factually do exist and will punish you for not believing as I do," that the burden of proof is hoisted upon their shoulders by their own claim.

That's the way the burden of proof works. There is no burden of proof in stating what is extant! "I know that fictonal creatures don't factually exist."

Nothing about that statement requires anything further on my part to defend or support; there is no burden of proof inherent within that declaration of extant fact. NOTHING.

<img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

Well said Koy! It deserves to be seen again on this page.

Mageth · 02-19-2002, 03:10 PM

Koy:

<img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

A typcial theist response: "Well, then, why do so many believe in U#:LKJE:LJSD?"

My answer: "Because they're IGNORANT! And you're even more ignorant for believing in something just because a lot of other people believe in it!"

Pseudonymph · 02-20-2002, 09:27 AM

JJ... and others posting something similar to his or her first post

You imply that the world revolves around you... why should a god taylor the world to fit your faith requirments?

jj · 02-21-2002, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by agapeo:

I disagree, one believes the universe was created. The other believes it was not. These are opposing beliefs, true, but beliefs nonetheless if neither side can "prove" their position. Evidence in either direction is strong or weak according to your perception of the evidence. One looks at the evidence and sees "intelligent design" and the other sees "natural selection." So we debate over whose perception is more reasonable to believe.

Um, one believes that the universe was created, the other one does not believe that somebody created the universe. It is NOT necessary to account for the existance of the universe in order to disbelieve that it was created by supernatural entitie(s).

This is why (as somebody else was complaining about) there is no 'church of atheism'. Atheists share a DISBELIEF. Having a "church of atheism" would be like having a "church of people who don't believe the moon is made of green cheese".

A rejection of somebody else's belief is NOT equal to a belief in and of itself.

'I have no idea' is a middle ground, for instance. There are some really interesting middle grounds, too

Me? I just haven't seen an yevidence for god, a god, gods, ye gods, or any other kind of gods. I've seen what looks for all the world like reportage of convulsions and dreams brought on by ergot tainted rye on the road to Damascus, for instance, a different thing altogether.

I have little faith in uncorroborated human testamony. I've run many audio DBT's in my life, and what people believe they've heard is often very unusual, even when people DO accurately detect differences, etc.

jj · 02-21-2002, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SirenSpeak:
JJ... and others posting something similar to his or her first post

You imply that the world revolves around you... why should a god taylor the world to fit your faith requirments?

What EVER are you sputtering about?

I've seen no evidence. If you're suggesting that one should invent something when no evidence exists, why not invent the cosmic muffin?

What's your point?

Vorkosigan · 02-22-2002, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Koyaanisqatsi:
He killed my father...

No, Koy. I....am your father. Come with me, and we will end this destructive conflict.....

Michael

Technos · 02-24-2002, 02:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by tronvillain:
Saying that one has absolutely no doubt that all gods are false is saying that there is no evidence which would increase your estimate of the probability of a god existing. To me, this seems somewhat irrational.

I think it's rather silly when a person is considered irrational for completely disbelieving in pixies, flying fire breathing dragons, gods, and invisible sea monkeys (I group them together because I find them all equally ridiculous concepts). If I did indeed see a flying fire breathing dragon, I would undoubtedly change my mind on the issue, but I've yet to see any evidence for such a thing other than pictures from old fiction films, a few legends, and a few kooks too caught up in fantasy to admit how ridiculous it is. Hopefully those who read this post can appreciate a poorly constructed metaphor

Megatron · 02-24-2002, 05:03 AM

U#:LKJE:LJSD IS my father...

The Great and Powerful Too RAH Loo is my brother...

And I'm still an atheist.

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02-19-2002, 07:26 AM	#51
Koyaanisqatsi Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Yes, I have dyslexia. Sue me. Posts: 6,508	He killed my father...

02-19-2002, 09:04 AM	#52
agapeo Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: OH Posts: 376	[I'M SO F-ING TIRED OF THIS NONSENSE!] Take two aspirins. Lay down for a nap and I assure you'll feel better when you wake up! <img src="graemlins/boohoo.gif" border="0" alt="[Boo Hoo]" />

02-19-2002, 03:10 PM	#54
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Koy: <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> A typcial theist response: "Well, then, why do so many believe in U#:LKJE:LJSD?" My answer: "Because they're IGNORANT! And you're even more ignorant for believing in something just because a lot of other people believe in it!"

02-20-2002, 09:27 AM	#55
Pseudonymph Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 813	JJ... and others posting something similar to his or her first post You imply that the world revolves around you... why should a god taylor the world to fit your faith requirments?

02-24-2002, 05:03 AM	#60
Megatron Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: New York Posts: 5,441	U#:LKJE:LJSD IS my father... The Great and Powerful Too RAH Loo is my brother... And I'm still an atheist.

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