Freethought & Rationalism Archive

GunnerJ · 03-11-2002, 04:56 AM

There's a notable lack of theistic replies here, so I'm bumping this.

beekay · 03-11-2002, 02:25 PM

Quote:

I think the contradiction comes from the theft of pagan customs by Christianity. In many pagan religions, they make it quite clear: the gods are not your friends, but if you appease them, they will help you. There is no paradox in praying to one of these gods, because they are quite clear: if you do not make the gods happy, they will not help you.

But Christianity created a paradox by stealing the pagan rites and gods and claiming them as its own. You can not have a benevolent God whose mind is changed by beseeching.

I completely agree with this origin of prayer explanation. However, I am still convinced that there is something more to prayer than just asking for things. I too am waiting for a theist to give me some prayer insight ...

Martin Gibbs · 03-15-2002, 05:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bonduca:
One church I went to briefly used to tell us that it was ok to pray for money, or a new car, since "God wants his people to be properous."

So what did I do? I became an atheist and drive a beat-up Toyota.

ditto: I was told if I prayed the rosary every day I'd get what I want. Even a million bucks? I asked. Yes! they said. So I tried it--all I got were sore knees.

I drive an 87 buick covered in rust.

03-15-2002, 07:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Martin Gibbs:


ditto: I was told if I prayed the rosary every day I'd get what I want. Even a million bucks? I asked. Yes! they said. So I tried it--all I got were sore knees.

I drive an 87 buick covered in rust.

You quit too soon. Good advise would be to sell the old Buick and crawl on your knees to get where you are going and you'll soon find out that you do not need to go very far to get what you need.

David Bowden · 03-15-2002, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Martin Gibbs:
I drive an 87 buick covered in rust.

Man, I must be one real sanctimonious infidel: I drive a Schwinn bicycle.

In the II News section there's a link to an article on religion&health. The article isn't specifically about the effects of prayer, but given that religious people frequently do pray about their situations, it seems to imply that those prayers go unanswered to such an extent that there's no difference between those who pray and those who don't.

Or maybe there are always just as many believers praying against the healing...?

-Wanderer

Bait · 03-15-2002, 02:14 PM

Not Prince Hamlet,

Could I suggest another couple of factors into this equation? Cindy is still of an age of innocence, Darren perhaps is not, meaning that Cindy really does not know the difference between good and bad, but overall, Darren probably does.
Does Darren really believe in God? Or is he praying only for his own gain? Cindy is too young to know the difference, she's still innocent.

Take into account the second factor, to God, physical death is not the end, only a transition for the better...for Cindy, if she died, she would be in his presence at peace, no pain, etc...and she would be away from the abusive father.

So the next thing perhaps God would consider,what would the consequences be if he answered either of their prayers in the affirmative (I believe he always answers...he just sometimes says no, my own belief though, no flames).

The amount of prayers is not necessarily what determines, but the quality...the reasons for the prayers, who's doing the praying and why, and the consequences thereafter. What would healing Cindy accomplish...more pain from her abusive father? Or something much better. Would an affirmative answer to the prayer straighten out the father, get him off the booze, and away from the abusiveness? Is he the one praying...and is he really sincere? What good will healing her serve? Will it cause more pain in the long run?

As to Darren, the same questions go. Why are they praying for his arm to heal? What will it accomplish? What good will it serve in the long run? Perhaps his healing helped a lot of people somehow, but Cindy's healing would do nothing but cause/continue her pain and suffering, and/or others.

Good topic...interesting answers I've seen so far.
Ron

Quote:

Originally posted by Not Prince Hamlet:
Let�s discuss the power of prayer. Let�s use as an example, poor little Cindy and lucky Darren.

Poor Cindy is 5 years old, and she has leukemia. Her mother died last year, and her father is an abusive alcoholic.

Darren is 16 years old, quarterback of his high school�s football team, and beloved by his wealthy family who want him to inherit the family business when his father retires from the law firm at which he is a partner.

So let�s talk about prayer. Could the power of prayer heal poor Cindy?

For praying to God to work on Cindy, it implies a few things:

1. God has the power to heal poor little Cindy. (If this is not true, God cannot be said to be omnipotent, which is an axiom of Judeo-Christian belief systems.)

2. God might not heal poor little Cindy if God so chooses. (If 1. is true, this must be true as well, or else every sick person like little Cindy would suddenly become well again and there would be no sickness.)

3. God�s decision to heal poor little Cindy depends on how many people pray for Cindy�s well-being. (If this were not true, then prayer would not make a difference. God would either heal Cindy or He would not.)

Now, let�s look at Cindy�s plight compared to Darren�s when he breaks his arm. Cindy knows nobody who loves her, so nobody prays for her. She dies a painful and lonely death; her father goes out drinking that very night.

Darren is absolutely critical for YourTown High�s chance to make it to the Nationals. Everybody at YourTown is appalled when he breaks his arm and they pray night and day for Darren�s arm to heal. And, it does!

But is it a miracle? And if so, what does that mean?

It is either a miracle, or it isn�t. But let�s look at it with the assumption that it�s a miracle, and that it�s a miracle that comes from the prayers of all those well-wishers who wanted YourTown High to make it to the Nationals.

It meant that the number of people who pray for someone is more important than that person�s plight. Poor little Cindy died because nobody prayed for her, but because Darren was popular (and helped the football team), he was healed.

What does that say about God? Does God watch the polls to see who�s popular, and then only chip in for the favored team? If China declared war on the United States, and both sides prayed to God for victory, would China win because they had more people praying than the United States? (or was Napoleon right, when he said, �God is on the side of the strongest battalions.�)

So, assuming the existence of a god, the power of prayer implies one of the following:

1. God is not omnipotent.
2. God is not benevolent.
3. God is a poll-watcher.

Your thoughts?

[ March 15, 2002: Message edited by: Bait ]

bonduca · 03-15-2002, 02:50 PM

Bait, why do you think prayers go unanswered? Why would a child feel suffering and pain, and pray to God, yet find no relief?

Kvalhion · 03-15-2002, 03:23 PM

Prayer is simply wishful thinking. Using the machine reference made earlier, prayer is similar to talking to a machine that has worked in exactly the same fashion for billions of years. Such prayers would hope to influence or change the machines behavior by perscribing a consciousness to the machine that it simply doesn't have.

This makes sense if you equate the machine to nature. Nature is a self efficient and self sustaining machine that has worked in exactly the same way for billions of years. Humans believe that the machine wants what they want. For instance, say the machine's output is a number between 1 and 100. People who pray to the machine believe that their prayer can influence how many times a 7 will appear. Invariably, every so often a 7 will indeed appear, and they use this (while ignoring 99% of the instances where a 7 didn't appear) to affirm their belief that the machine wants what they want. Conveniently, they then analyze the machines consciousness on why it didn't give a 7 in other instances, always presupposing that the machine really wants to produce a 7 but was somehow unable to.

The utter lack of consistency of prayer is proof positive that people are simply taking results that have been consistent for billions of years and are attributing their own meaning to them.

Furthermore, prayer is inherently reactionary. Prayer seeks to change conditions that already exist (such as sickness, poverty, hunger, joblessness, etc) or conditions that may come to exist (such as the health of family members). Prayer does nothing to examine why these conditions would exist in the first place. People who pray undoubtedly assume that it is inevitable that these conditions exist, so they ignore that question completely. This, above all in my opinion, is the real detriment of prayer and much of religion in general.

The effectiveness of prayer is the same as the effectiveness of no prayer. The only difference is the interpretation of the events after they occur. Perhaps it makes people feel better to believe that some deity somewhere wants them to live when so many others have died. Perhaps it makes people feel better to rationalize that someone did die despite prayer because they went on to better things. Be it as it may, these are simply human rationalizations upon a system that has not and never will change. There is simply no need to.

The sole exception on effecitveness of prayer is the effect of prayer upon oneself, since it has been shown that prayer (also referred to as meditation) can ease stress and the like.

Simply put, the power of prayer is whatever we, as humans, attribute to it.

Edit: Clarification

[ March 15, 2002: Message edited by: Kvalhion ]

Technos · 03-17-2002, 12:37 PM

It seems rather simple. If something good happens thank a god, if something bad happens blame man. If a man does something good give him 30 seconds in the spotlight then turn to thanking a god, if he does something bad then no gods come to mind, or an evil god comes to mind. Well, at least humans get credit for our mistakes, if only we got credit for all the good we do as well.

03-15-2002, 03:23 PM	#28
Kvalhion Regular Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Southern CA Posts: 441	Prayer is simply wishful thinking. Using the machine reference made earlier, prayer is similar to talking to a machine that has worked in exactly the same fashion for billions of years. Such prayers would hope to influence or change the machines behavior by perscribing a consciousness to the machine that it simply doesn't have. This makes sense if you equate the machine to nature. Nature is a self efficient and self sustaining machine that has worked in exactly the same way for billions of years. Humans believe that the machine wants what they want. For instance, say the machine's output is a number between 1 and 100. People who pray to the machine believe that their prayer can influence how many times a 7 will appear. Invariably, every so often a 7 will indeed appear, and they use this (while ignoring 99% of the instances where a 7 didn't appear) to affirm their belief that the machine wants what they want. Conveniently, they then analyze the machines consciousness on why it didn't give a 7 in other instances, always presupposing that the machine really wants to produce a 7 but was somehow unable to. The utter lack of consistency of prayer is proof positive that people are simply taking results that have been consistent for billions of years and are attributing their own meaning to them. Furthermore, prayer is inherently reactionary. Prayer seeks to change conditions that already exist (such as sickness, poverty, hunger, joblessness, etc) or conditions that may come to exist (such as the health of family members). Prayer does nothing to examine why these conditions would exist in the first place. People who pray undoubtedly assume that it is inevitable that these conditions exist, so they ignore that question completely. This, above all in my opinion, is the real detriment of prayer and much of religion in general. The effectiveness of prayer is the same as the effectiveness of no prayer. The only difference is the interpretation of the events after they occur. Perhaps it makes people feel better to believe that some deity somewhere wants them to live when so many others have died. Perhaps it makes people feel better to rationalize that someone did die despite prayer because they went on to better things. Be it as it may, these are simply human rationalizations upon a system that has not and never will change. There is simply no need to. The sole exception on effecitveness of prayer is the effect of prayer upon oneself, since it has been shown that prayer (also referred to as meditation) can ease stress and the like. Simply put, the power of prayer is whatever we, as humans, attribute to it. Edit: Clarification [ March 15, 2002: Message edited by: Kvalhion ]</p>

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03-11-2002, 04:56 AM	#21
GunnerJ Banned Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: a place where i can list whatever location i want Posts: 4,871	There's a notable lack of theistic replies here, so I'm bumping this.

03-15-2002, 02:50 PM	#27
bonduca Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: . Posts: 1,653	Bait, why do you think prayers go unanswered? Why would a child feel suffering and pain, and pray to God, yet find no relief?

03-17-2002, 12:37 PM	#29
Technos Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Nashville, Tennessee Posts: 136	It seems rather simple. If something good happens thank a god, if something bad happens blame man. If a man does something good give him 30 seconds in the spotlight then turn to thanking a god, if he does something bad then no gods come to mind, or an evil god comes to mind. Well, at least humans get credit for our mistakes, if only we got credit for all the good we do as well.

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