Not Prince Hamlet

Let’s discuss the power of prayer. Let’s use as an example, poor little Cindy and lucky Darren.

Poor Cindy is 5 years old, and she has leukemia. Her mother died last year, and her father is an abusive alcoholic.

Darren is 16 years old, quarterback of his high school’s football team, and beloved by his wealthy family who want him to inherit the family business when his father retires from the law firm at which he is a partner.

So let’s talk about prayer. Could the power of prayer heal poor Cindy?

For praying to God to work on Cindy, it implies a few things:

1. God has the power to heal poor little Cindy. (If this is not true, God cannot be said to be omnipotent, which is an axiom of Judeo-Christian belief systems.)

2. God might not heal poor little Cindy if God so chooses. (If 1. is true, this must be true as well, or else every sick person like little Cindy would suddenly become well again and there would be no sickness.)

3. God’s decision to heal poor little Cindy depends on how many people pray for Cindy’s well-being. (If this were not true, then prayer would not make a difference. God would either heal Cindy or He would not.)

Now, let’s look at Cindy’s plight compared to Darren’s when he breaks his arm. Cindy knows nobody who loves her, so nobody prays for her. She dies a painful and lonely death; her father goes out drinking that very night.

Darren is absolutely critical for YourTown High’s chance to make it to the Nationals. Everybody at YourTown is appalled when he breaks his arm and they pray night and day for Darren’s arm to heal. And, it does!

But is it a miracle? And if so, what does that mean?

It is either a miracle, or it isn’t. But let’s look at it with the assumption that it’s a miracle, and that it’s a miracle that comes from the prayers of all those well-wishers who wanted YourTown High to make it to the Nationals.

It meant that the number of people who pray for someone is more important than that person’s plight. Poor little Cindy died because nobody prayed for her, but because Darren was popular (and helped the football team), he was healed.

What does that say about God? Does God watch the polls to see who’s popular, and then only chip in for the favored team? If China declared war on the United States, and both sides prayed to God for victory, would China win because they had more people praying than the United States? (or was Napoleon right, when he said, “God is on the side of the strongest battalions.”)

So, assuming the existence of a god, the power of prayer implies one of the following:

1. God is not omnipotent.
2. God is not benevolent.
3. God is a poll-watcher.

Your thoughts?

Megatron

Judging by the christian-defined attributes of God, my money is on #2, since the obvious, #4, has been ruled out for the purpose of this argument... #4, of course, being "God is a lie."

[ March 10, 2002: Message edited by: Zero Angel ]</p>

Not Prince Hamlet

Zero Angel,

I agree. However, I wanted to assume this existence of God for the argument, to narrow down the discussion. Without this as an assertion, the topic would wander all over the place. I hope this will keep it focused on just prayer.

Jeff

Tercel

Not Prince Hamlet,
I would suggest that God takes many more things into consideration than those listed above. Certainly any real-life situation would be far more complex than your simplistic model.
Certainly 1 and 2 are true or at least are to be assumed true for the purposes of this exercise.

Now 3 is the problem. Why should God heal someone based soley on numbers? Surely there are quite a number of other relevant things to be taken into account such as:
* God's reason for allowing the injury/sickness in the first place
* The affected person's own actions: repentence, stubborness, anger, humilty etc
* The character and situation of the people praying, their motives for the prayer(s).
* The implications of a healing: The response of the affected person and the community to a miraculous healing or a gradual healing.
* The potential for changing people for the better by the injury/sickness.
etc

I could go on, but these are just a few examples of things I can imagine would affect God's decision in any real situation. Remember God is an intelligent being able to weigh and analyse a variety of criteria before forming a decision at his discretion - not a machine which follows the endless loop "Are lots of people praying? If so HEAL, if not do nothing."

bonduca

Tercel, why would God not answer a prayer, from, for instance, an abused child? What if the child were praying that the abuse stop, yet it not only continues, but increases? How does one explain such a thing?

Mageth

I could go on, but these are just a few examples of things I can imagine would affect God's decision in any real situation. Remember God is an intelligent being able to weigh and analyse a variety of criteria before forming a decision at his discretion - not a machine which follows the endless loop "Are lots of people praying? If so HEAL, if not do nothing."

I have a hard time seeing the difference between the "intelligent being" god and the machine. So what if there are one or a thousand parameters he examines? I would assume that god would act the same in two nearly or exactly the same situations regardless. If not, then god is arbitrarily making the decision, flipping a coin so to speak. If so, then god is acting like a machine, responding in a predictable way to a set of input parameters.

Not Prince Hamlet

Bonduca,

Meanwhile, if memory serves, there's somebody on this forum who claims that prayer helped him learn Russian? He won't help an abused child who prays but will help someone to learn Russian?

Another thing about prayer: do you have to cajole, wheedle, or trick God into helping you?

"Well, I wasn't going to heal Cindy, but because Bob prayed for her, well, I guess I will."

Let's face it: either God plans to do something or God does not plan to do something. If God plans to do something, then either a) the prayer has no effect, or b) the prayer changes God's mind.

If a), there's no point to praying. If b), that means you basically have to beg God to do a kindness that He otherwise wouldn't do.


At this point, if I were a believer, I'd have to take the "God works in mysterious ways" escape clause, because there is no other way to escape the logic. (Although, the clause doesn't really escape the logic, it just avoids it ostridge-style.)

Jeff

bonduca

Maybe God hates children, but loves Berlitz. Or perhaps this is the "improving character through adversity clause," thereby demanding gratitude for being beaten bloody.

[ March 10, 2002: Message edited by: bonduca ]</p>

Answerer

Obviously, God and even his angels were never seen before by any people except those claimed in the Bible or Koran. Nevertheless, it is an easy thing for God to send an angel and assainated Hitler during the world war II, especially when many people prayed for his death. But too bad God don't care and rather enjoy seeing his 'creations' killed one another. However, there are yet so many people give excuses for their God's uncaring attitude and existence.

Mageth

To simplify the situation, suppose it's two 1-month-old infants that both are sick with the same disease that has a high fatality rate. Both sets of parents are in churches of the same denomination, are equally dedicated christians and live essentially parallel lives. Both pray, and the corresponding churches pray, seeking for the infants to be healed, with eqivalent faith in god's power to heal. One infant dies and the other lives.

Is it to assumed that the one that lived did so because of a miracle (or just because it beat the odds of the disease), and the one that died was not healed because god wanted to teach the parents something or for some greater good for the infant?

Or does god look in the hearts of the people praying seeking some fault that will prevent him from healing?

It all seems rather arbitrary and cruel to me. Just what you'd expect if there is no god.