Freethought & Rationalism Archive

tgamble · 02-07-2002, 04:11 AM

I'm almost positive that this quote is not only out of context but missing words/sentences. Is that right?

Quote:

"The family trees which adorn our text books are based on inference, however, reasonable, not the evidence of fossils." Stephen Jay Gould, Prof of Geology and Paleontology, Harvard University "Evolution's Erratic Pace" Natural History, May, 1977, p. 13

It seems to be a warped version of this quote:

Quote:

"The extreme rarity of transitional forms in the fossil record persists as the trade secret of paleontology. The evolutionary trees that adorn our textbooks have data only at the tips and nodes of their branches; the rest is inference, however reasonable, not the evidence of fossils....We fancy ourselves as the only true students of life's history, yet to preserve our favored account of evolution by natural selection we view our data as so bad hat we never see the very process we profess to study."
(Stephen J. Gould, "Evolution's Erratic Pace", Natural History, vol. 86 (May 1977), p.14)

which is also, no doubt, out of context.

[ February 07, 2002: Message edited by: tgamble ]

jhallum · 02-07-2002, 04:56 AM

Whenever someone flashes Gould at me, I always start with this quote:

"since we proposed punctuated equilibrium to explain trends, it is infuriating to be quoted again and again by creationists - whether through design or stupidity, I do not know - as admitting that the fossil record includes no transitional forms. Transitional forms are generally lacking at the species level but are abundant between larger groups."Gould, S.J. (1983) p 260, Hens teeth and Horses toes. Norton & Co., New York

and then start looking for any misquotes in the original statement that the creationist made. It usually serves to put them on the defensive right quick.

tgamble · 02-07-2002, 05:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jhallum:
Whenever someone flashes Gould at me, I always start with this quote:

"since we proposed punctuated equilibrium to explain trends, it is infuriating to be quoted again and again by creationists - whether through design or stupidity, I do not know - as admitting that the fossil record includes no transitional forms. Transitional forms are generally lacking at the species level but are abundant between larger groups."Gould, S.J. (1983) p 260, Hens teeth and Horses toes. Norton & Co., New York

and then start looking for any misquotes in the original statement that the creationist made. It usually serves to put them on the defensive right quick.

<a href="http://home.mmcable.com/harlequin/evol/lies/lie009.html" target="_blank">http://home.mmcable.com/harlequin/evol/lies/lie009.html</a>

has a more extensive version of that quote.

Oolon Colluphid · 02-07-2002, 05:14 AM

For the benefit of the lurkers, especially new ones, it's worth mentioning that the Gould quote isn't just out of context etc, it's irrelevant: there's plenty of evidence for transitions in the fossil record. This lot should keep anyone who disagrees quiet:

<a href="http://www.gcssepm.org/special/cuffey_05.htm" target="_blank">Mammal-like reptiles</a>

<a href="http://www.cs.colorado.edu/~lindsay/creation/fossil_series.html" target="_blank">Smooth change in the fossil record</a>

<a href="http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-transitional.html" target="_blank">Transitional Vertebrate fossil FAQ</a>

Cheers, Oolon

John Solum · 02-07-2002, 06:31 AM

I just went to the library and made a copy of the article in question. Here's the entire quote:

Quote:

The extreme rarity of transitional forms in the fossil record persists as the trade secret of paleontology. The evolutionary trees that adorn our textbooks have data only at the tips and nodes of their branches: the rest is inference, however reasonable, not the evidence of the fossils.

I think this is the very quote that Gould's response from Hens' Teeth and Horses' Toes addresses.

The article clearly is discussing only speciation, and why punctuated equilibrium is a better explanation for the fossil record than gradualism.

Oolon Colluphid · 02-07-2002, 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by John Solum:
The article clearly is discussing only speciation, and why punctuated equilibrium is a better explanation for the fossil record than gradualism.

Note, of course, that when it comes down to it, Gould is just as 'gradualist' as the next 'evolutionist' when it comes to how evolution happens, ie generation to generation slight changes. Punk eek is a reaction against what Dawkins calls 'constant speedism', which no-one really believed anyway.

Cheers, Oolon

[ February 07, 2002: Message edited by: Oolon Colluphid ]

Valentine Pontifex · 02-07-2002, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tgamble:


<a href="http://home.mmcable.com/harlequin/evol/lies/lie009.html" target="_blank">http://home.mmcable.com/harlequin/evol/lies/lie009.html</a>

has a more extensive version of that quote.

I have not updated that page in a while. The entire article can be found at:

<a href="http://www.freethought-web.org/ctrl/gould_fact-and-theory.html" target="_blank">http://www.freethought-web.org/ctrl/gould_fact-and-theory.html</a>

Needless to say that I link to it in my "Quotations and Misquotations" article.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

02-07-2002, 04:56 AM	#2
jhallum Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 26	Whenever someone flashes Gould at me, I always start with this quote: "since we proposed punctuated equilibrium to explain trends, it is infuriating to be quoted again and again by creationists - whether through design or stupidity, I do not know - as admitting that the fossil record includes no transitional forms. Transitional forms are generally lacking at the species level but are abundant between larger groups."Gould, S.J. (1983) p 260, Hens teeth and Horses toes. Norton & Co., New York and then start looking for any misquotes in the original statement that the creationist made. It usually serves to put them on the defensive right quick.

02-07-2002, 05:14 AM	#4
Oolon Colluphid Contributor Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Alibi: ego ipse hinc extermino Posts: 12,591	For the benefit of the lurkers, especially new ones, it's worth mentioning that the Gould quote isn't just out of context etc, it's irrelevant: there's plenty of evidence for transitions in the fossil record. This lot should keep anyone who disagrees quiet: <a href="http://www.gcssepm.org/special/cuffey_05.htm" target="_blank">Mammal-like reptiles</a> <a href="http://www.cs.colorado.edu/~lindsay/creation/fossil_series.html" target="_blank">Smooth change in the fossil record</a> <a href="http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-transitional.html" target="_blank">Transitional Vertebrate fossil FAQ</a> Cheers, Oolon

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.