Goliath

Darth Dane,

It is logically impossible. Your question about standards leads to a non-sequitur.

What if the only god is a retarded blowfish in the Aegean sea named Lenny?

What if every piece of toast is a supernatural entity?

What if the only god is Ogar the Jello God! BEWARE OF OGAR! IT IS HE WHO MAKES THE WALLS TREMBLE!!!



Let me know when you're done playing the boring "what if" game, and when you're ready to make statements that you can back up.

Sincerely,

Goliath

Darkblade

:notworthy

Magus55

How does omnipotence become a contradiction? Paradoxes can't exist, even for God. God can't defy his own nature. Not being able to do absolutely anything the human mind can conceive, doesn't mean he isn't omnipotent.

God can do absolute anything that doesn't defy His nature, because to do so would mean He wasn't God. I don't quite get why this is such a hard concept.

And to your problem with God not helping humanity enough. First of all, He saved you from your death sentence for your earthly crimes ( of course I know you think big woop but nonetheless He did). Second, lets suppose God did help humanity out. If God helped humanity out, He would be undeniable, correct? Everyone would believe in Him, and if you knew for a fact He existed - why would you ever deny Him since you know He would punish you? ( right now, since you don't know for sure He exists, the possibility of punishment doesn't phase you). That means, no one would love God because they want to and because they believe in what He says, they would love Him solely for fear of punishment or because they had no other choice... bye bye free will.

Now, we come to 2 scenarios in relation to human actions. First, if you know for a fact that God exists, why would you ever do anything against Him since you know you'd be punished? That again, messes with Free will. You aren't going to make the choice to kill someone or have evil thoughts if God is standing over you.

Second scenario. If God helped humanity in some ways, He would have to stop every single bad thing that will ever happen. If He was arbitrary in who He helped, then that defeats the purpose of helping humanity in the first place. By constantly helping humanity, God would be at your beckon call, and humans would be in control of God. Humans don't tell God what to do, because it destroys His sovereignty - God isn't a magic genie. He created you, He's in control and makes the decisions - not the other way around.

Now, if God stops every evil action or problem in the world, where does free will come in? You couldn't make any choices on your own, because all of them would be God's choices, not your own. And if you no longer have Free will, you can't love God because you want to, you'd have to love Him since you'd have no other choice, and God doesn't force love - He wants it to be sincere.

I know you have a big problem with God not helping humanity at every whim, but it would no longer make Him God or preserve free will if you can't make your own choices, and He ends up being at humanities beckon call. By remaining hidden, He can help when He deems it in His will and part of His plan, and humans have to call on Him and pray for God. This increases faith, devotion, love and maintains His sovereignty and Godliness. He can also help people without it affecting Free will, because you still have the choice to do what your want, since God won't always stop it. He gives you responsibility and lets the consequences be carried out. Yes, God doesn't always help with every problem or action ( at least, not in obvious ways). Many times for reasons we just can't understand, but that doesn't mean He doesn't care. It just means there are reasons He doesn't to preserve his sovereignty, human prayer and faith, and free will.

Sorry for the slight derail, just thought i would answer those questions. And Goliath, i'm sure my explanation still isn't satisfactory to you, but I tried to explain it as best as possible. God does care more than you can ever imagine, but there are higher reasons and purposes for why things happen that we don't fully understand, and we just have to accept them.

Angrillori

Alright, he's just like Superman, but can be anywhere and everywhere at once.

He fights injustice, stopping instantaneously all attempts at rape, torture, murder, and badness. He fights disease at will and generally does "nice" things.

He encourages people to be good, and rehabilitates them when they're bad.

Since we can see him and touch him, there's no confusion over what religion's right. In fact, when someone starts preaching wrongly, he shows up and corrects them.

He can even keep heaven and hell available, but hell's only temporary, and in proportion to the crime, and EVERYONE knows that heaven and hell exist and what the inescapable punishment for each clearly delineated sin is.

How about that?

TollHouse

Meet "Sean Thy God". His greatest power is that he has a really long dong. In fact, most followers call him "Long Dong Sean".


Don't laugh, he'll whip you good with that thing!

Jobar

Magus, GeoTheo specifically asked for answers from atheists; since you don't qualify, please refrain from answering. You are, of course, welcome to start a thread with a reference to this one, and comment on it to your heart's content- but don't derail this one.

Angrillori

And Magus, I convict you right now of....not worshiping me, Angrillorii!



And now I pardon you and suspend your death sentence.


Now worship me.


Good question. I fail to see why this is worse though than just guessing at his existence, then guessing at which form of his existence to follow, then finally guessing which way to follow this form.
Because, if, as you posit, the only valid choice is one without evidence, it boils down to just that, a completely uneducated guess. 100% evidence=bad, 0% evidence=good. But 0% evidence=just a random guess. Might as well go to Vegas and get better odds though, the chances you guess the right God, Form, and Way are certainly smaller than Black-Black-Red on roulette.

Wait a second. All he had to do is not tell us about hell. This seems like a more reasonable way doesn't it? Then we'd all love him on his own merits right? So I guess my god would instantaneously be better than yours if he A) Gave 100% proof of his existance, but B) Never told us about rewards and punishments.

Plus, Pascal's Wager anyone? Isn't a prime reason to be a Xian the fear of hell? If this was unintentional, then why the doctrine of hell in the first place.

No Magus, your brutal God does want people to come to him in fear. Deal with it.

Good question. Boy, who ever heard of obeying laws because you'd get punished if you broke em? Kinda seems the point right?

But, to humor you, isn't it true that through history humanity has regularly done things in the face of punishment? In fact, wasn't it even recently that people chose profess christianity EVEN in the face of punishment. (Or do you still believe we NEVER do anything we'd get punished for?)

And second, as long as we're in the world of 'If' then lets even throw the 'if' God didn't tell us he'd punish us into the mix. Ergo, no fear of punishment, ergo, your scenario goes down the tubes. Silly Magus, thinking is for grown-ups.
Prayer anyone?
I mean sheesh Magus you don't even TRY to think about what you're typing do you?

Plus, simply stopping evil isn't anywhere near as demanding as prayer, in fact, he wouldn't be at anyone's disposal at all. I imagine he'd most often, in fact, be showing up when people LEAST want him there.

But even if we conveniently forget about the fact that God does put himself at our beck and call, then we still have to wonder why it is so much more of a put-out for an omnipotent being to stop all evil like an uber-superman than it is a put-out to die in agony on a cross for these same people who aren't supposed to affect his actions.

Uhmm, who's stopping the choosing, just the enacting. When police stop a 'crime-in-progress' did those criminals never choose to commit the crime?

I'm confident though, that if you keep trying to think, Magus, you'll manage some coherent, non-contradictory thought someday. You could say I have faith in you. Now worship me. You didn't forget that death sentence commute did you?

Huh? I can love or not love a lot of people I know exist. And the fact that he stops evil would certainly encourage me to love him, it wouldn't be compulsory.

And enforcing your laws somehow invalidates free will because?
Because calling on him is not putting him at our beck and call?
Dude, that doesn't even make sense. My choice to do something is abrogated by God stopping me from actually doing it? Uhmmm....what about my choice to fly? Oh wait, God took away my free will to actually do it (fly) by stopping me every time.

Ahhh, so when God puts himself at humanities whim he's really not putting himself at humanities whim, and when he does take away free will he's really not taking away free will, and free will isn't even free will but the physical ability to do everything we want except the things we may want to do but can't.

Once again Magus, you lower your apologeticness to new depths. I thought I had read the worst apologetic ever when you posted your Problem of Suffering stuff, but seriously dude, this is far far worse.

Magus55

Why thank you, coming from you i'll take it as a compliment.

HRG

You have just emptied the concept of omnipotence of all meaning.

I too can do anything that doesn't defy my nature. Of course, to do anything against my nature would mean that I am not HRG. Thus it would be illogical. Omnipotence does not require the ability to do illogical things.

IOW, I too am omnipotent. I don't quite get why this is such a hard concept

Regards,
HRG.

David M. Payne

Here you go. I have more if you need them.

David