pilaar

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Seebs:
I think the problem is you're assuming that people become Christian for the bennies - afterlife, whatever. Some of us convert because we come to believe the fundamental claims themselves to be true.
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No, some of us have gone that road because they believe in the fundamentals of justice, equality, respect for all people regardles of who they are, and all sorts of other things like this. Some of us thought these would be found amongst the Christians because they talk alot about this things. Talk and reality are two diffent things though. So some of us have turned a diffenent way because we find that these fundamentals are found in greater abundance and regularity amongst non-believers in Christian God.

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No. Frankly, I act almost exactly the way I did before I converted. Fuck the afterlife; I'm doing what's right *because I think it is right*. I have come to believe that God approves of this, and I feel that I do not need to worry. I frankly don't know what the afterlife is like, nor am I very concerned with it. Right now, I can act as I feel is right, or I can find excuses not to. Christianity has helped me tromp on my tendency to find excuses not to.

I rejected the "fear of hell" argument before I converted, and I reject it now. Acting to avoid punishment is not morality.
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I live in the same way, I act because I believe that what I am doing is right, have not got a clue about any afterlife or if it exists at all, I too believe that acting to avoid punishment is not morality. I just also believe that the belief in God or specifically Christian God is not necessary to do any of the above, it comes with too much extra baggage. And it doesn't change anything. I rely on my friends to stop my tendency to find excuses, and they do.

Have fun.

pilaar

HelenM

Darren, it might help if the pastor would be willing to call your wife after your visit to him alone, to say something encouraging that will help her through if he doesn't manage to reconvert you during that session. Because I'm thinking she's going to be furious if you come home still an atheist. Hearing him say something like 'well, these things take time and I definitely want to see you both next week' (or whenever the second appointment is - I forgot exactly what you said) might be helpful to your situation. I'm not saying he should lie to her, of course - but perhaps if you explain to him about her moods he might be willing to call and say something to counteract her thinking "it's the end of the world, because he didn't come home a Christian".

It's just a suggestion. She's obviously influenced by what other Christians say and it sure would be nice if some Christians would say some encouraging things to her instead of evidently encouraging her in her despair over your atheism...

take care
Helen

muon

Hmm, I'm dubious that this is the right way to go. That phrase "these things take time" may only raise a false expectation in Darren's wife that with time Darren will come around to Christianity. She needs to appreciate that Darren has no such intention. It could be very destructive if her minister is implying that the goal of this is to bring Darren back to Jesus.

Darren, I think you ought to be pushing for this minister to: (1) tell your wife that her religion doesn't allow her to divorce you over this, (2) convince her that she needs professional counselling from a medically trained professional. Hopefully he will be sympathetic. In my view, the only purpose is dealing with this minister is that he's a potential tool for manipulating your wife into being reasonable, or at least getting some serious help. If that doesn't work out, screw it!

(Now I don't want to hear a single damned complaint that True Christians wouldn't act so reasonably as I would have this minister do. As atheists, the last thing we ought to be doing is to insist that Christians live up to some extreme fucked-up ideal. I'd prefer to encourage hypocrisy among the religious, as it beats the alternative. )

HelenM

I see what you're saying but I'd say it's best not to push that point with Darren's wife until she is more emotionally stable and come to realize that an atheist husband isn't the end of the world.

Until then, when someone mentions his atheism she thinks "end of the world" and will continue to be plunged into anger and despair. Or so it seems from what Darren has shared.

Her basic problem as best I can tell is not Darren's atheism - it is his wife's all-or-nothing thinking combined with her emotional instability, probably exarcerbated by fatigue and stress from having four active children and long work hours.

I said what I did in the hopes that the pastor can help Darren's wife not to have an emotional crisis if he comes home as atheist as ever. In the longer-term yes of course she should be helped to have a realistic perspective on Darren's atheism. But in the short-term I'm not sure that's the no 1 priority - I'd say it's to help her to more emotional stability.

I could be wrong. It's just my perspective. What I wrote was just an example really of one thing that could help her not to have a crisis, so it seemed to me. And maybe there are other things the pastor could say that would be more appropriate but still helpful to her.

Thanks for your comments. I think Darren appreciates all input and perspectives on his situation.

take care
Helen

Vicar Philip

I agree. This whole situation is getting worse. My mom saw her at Wal-Mart this morning, and they started talking about our problems. My wife was telling my mom she wasn't going to budge, and she didn't think I was either.

Here's my question, and we keep coming back to this over and over. Is it unreasonable of me to expect my wife to accept my atheism and "raise the kids as Christians" by herself? That is the one thing that continues to plague her. If we were childless (blessing-free? ), I don't think we'd have near the problem. She states, however, that back when the kids were all baptized, I was promising to raise them as Christians. And now I'm backing out of that promise.

Am I? How can I back out of a promise to something I don't believe in? She doesn't want to be "one of those wives" who take their kids to church without the husband. I told her at least I was being honest and not going because I'm an atheist. What's their excuse?

I was talking to my mom earlier today and she teared up, afraid that our family is going to fall apart. I don't know what to say. I am not backing down. How hypocritical it would be of me now, not to mention dishonest with myself, to suddenly profess a newfound belief in god and Jesus. But that is exactly what she is hoping comes of my meeting with the pastor. Don't bet on it.

She was sick this morning, and blames all of our fighting for it. I would be perfectly content to not even discuss the shit, and yet it's her who continues to bring it up. I can't tell all of you how sick and tired I am of the whole business. If you're not married, do yourself a BIG favor and marry a like-minded individual. You'll be much better off.

sakrilege

Didn't she promise to stay married to you 'til death do you part'? How can she talk divorce?

HelenM

Is your mom agreeing with her and taking 'her side'?

I think she should be grateful if you let her raise them as Christians at all.

If it comes to promises, didn't she promise to stay with you until 'death do us part'? What happened to that promise?

And being a single mother who takes her kids to church by herself is better, how?

Maybe they're all Christians. Or maybe she hasn't noticed there are some other women without husbands. She probably only notices the ones who do have husbands with them.

I think if you pretended to believe, you'd regret it later.

I hope your mom is not taking her side against you.

take care
Helen

Vicar Philip

My mom is trying very hard to not take sides. She believes in god, but doesn't go to church. She and I have had many long discussions, and she does acknowledge that I have quite a few good objections to Christianity. If only my wife would go that far. My mom is mainly concerned about our kids, and what will happen to them should we split up. Of course it wouldn't be pretty. Are there ANY non-messy divorces involving kids?

As far as her not wanting to be like the other women at the church, there are several families like that, where the wife brings the kids to church and the husband stays home. She doesn't want to be "one of them." Like you said, Helen, better that than a SINGLE WOMAN taking the kids to church with no father waiting for them at home. I don't think she's really thought about me not being here. She talks tough, and acts like she absolutely won't back down. But I wonder.

sakrilege,

Another concern she has expressed is that since I just "suddenly" turned my back on god, what's stopping me from just "suddenly" turning my back on our marriage? I told her the difference is, I KNOW she LOVES ME. She tells me, hugs me, kisses me, etc. god does NOTHING. If I believed in him, let's see: he gives me no proof, doesn't answer my prayers, lets people I love die painful, lingering deaths, answers trivial prayers of pathetic Christians (new job, win ball game, find keys) while ignoring folks who pray for a healthy baby, and get a horribly disfigured, brain-dead infant who lives for a few hours. Some god.

So no, I will NOT suddenly turn my back on our marriage. She and my kids mean too much to me. I guess I should throw back at her that it looks like she is planning on turning her back on ME. Her and her fuckin' GOD AND JESUS. If it truly comes down to it, and she will not agree to disagree, I guess we will separate. Then she'll get a taste of life without the Vicar. And she won't like it.

BadBadBad

Darren,

She seems depressed to me not because she's got some chemical imbalance, but because she's upset over your recently found atheism. Her propensity to clinical depression may make "upset" deeper and darker, but we can't dismiss the trigger as a foolish mis-interpretation furthered by her psychological problems. She's not waking up one day to realize that her deep heart felt convictions about christianity being the core of the marriage are rediculous. If we think chemical imbalance is the issue, let's hope she'll wake up one day and realize that all this christianity crap was just a big batch of bad hormones!

BC

Vicar Philip

BC,

I'm afraid you're right. She's been depressed before, and totally unreasonable. One of those times she was pregnant with our last child and kind of wigged out (broke my windshield, threw shit at me, etc.) and I was a True Christian™ at that time!

I'm afraid now, the "trigger", as you said, is definitely my atheism. And it isn't going away.

Vicar