Freethought & Rationalism Archive

NFLP · 10-02-2002, 05:27 PM

On the Sunday before the recent primary election in Florida, state senator Jones---who was running for the Democrat gubernatorial spot---spoke during services at Without Walls International Church in Tampa. Pastor Randy White instructed the congregation to vote for Jones. Is this within legal guidelines?

White is a Benny Hinn-like, faith healing, tongue speaker who lives in a 2.2 million dollar house and wears $1200 dollar suits. This is a cult and you wouldn't believe how the neurotic people carry on.

White and his co-pastor wife Paula really work the crowd for a tithe and two offerings at each service. Last Sunday, Paula had the doors closed and demanded that the flock "come into obedience" and would be dismissed when everyone made a pledge to supply $1000 by the end of the year----in addition to the tithe demanded by God.

These folks have got to be dirty somewhere along the way. How does one expose them to the law?

[ October 03, 2002: Message edited by: NFLP ]</p>

GaryP · 10-02-2002, 05:46 PM

It sounds highly questionable to me.

You could contact Americans United.

They seem highly interested in cases such as this.

<a href="http://www.au.org/contact.htm" target="_blank">au.org</a>

You would probably get a more immediate response by calling them.

[ October 02, 2002: Message edited by: GaryP ]</p>

Buffman · 10-03-2002, 01:28 AM

NFLP

May I inquire how you came by this information? Thank you.

For those who may not be familiar with this outfit/gang, here are some general hyperlinks.

Without Walls International Church
(WWIC) was birthed in 1991 with a heart and call for evangelism and restoration. Equipped with a vision larger than man's ability to fulfill, God imparted a mandate within the hearts of Pastors Randy and Paula White to take the gospel to the nations of the world through the threshold of Tampa, Florida. Starting with only five people, WWIC began to grow at an exponential rate and quickly became identified as the second fastest growing church in the nation by the Church Growth Institute. Now, a few short years after inception, God has thrust WWIC into the nations of the world. Ministering to more than 12,000 people on a weekly basis, the city has become the congregation and the world has become the mission.

<a href="http://newsletters.cephasministry.com/church_without_walls.html" target="_blank">http://newsletters.cephasministry.com/church_without_walls.html</a>

<a href="http://www.reporternews.com/1999/religion/waters0731.html" target="_blank">http://www.reporternews.com/1999/religion/waters0731.html</a>

<a href="http://www.paulawhite.org/mini.asp" target="_blank">http://www.paulawhite.org/mini.asp</a>

<a href="http://www.sptimes.com/News/122201/Hillsborough/The_charity_of_stripp.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.sptimes.com/News/122201/Hillsborough/The_charity_of_stripp.shtml</a>

<a href="http://www.charismamag.com/online/articledisplay.pl?ArticleID=6603" target="_blank">http://www.charismamag.com/online/articledisplay.pl?ArticleID=6603</a>

<a href="http://www.livefromstudiob.com/index.cfm/fa/artist/id/63" target="_blank">http://www.livefromstudiob.com/index.cfm/fa/artist/id/63</a>

Here's the insightful one.

<a href="http://gophell.com/holytrucks-4-30-02.htm" target="_blank">http://gophell.com/holytrucks-4-30-02.htm</a>

[ October 03, 2002: Message edited by: Buffman ]</p>

Sabine Grant · 10-03-2002, 03:13 AM

Dear Buffman and NFLP..... I will try to remain as objective as I can to try to balance both of your comments.

Being a believer, I recognize how God will utilize a body of believers to manifest His intent to expand goodness onto others....however when it comes to utilizing means which are not even supported by the book, we christians consider as a manual for behavior and guidelines in our faith, it is clear to me that those means are there to benefit the so called "anointed ones". Pastor Randy's home was not turned into a homeless shelter..... was it? the use of a Mercedes is not a requirement to visit the poor and the sick and those who are in jail. The practice of demanding tithes in a threatening manner has no biblical justification. You do not get cheerful givers as you intimidate church members. As to the endorsement of a political candidate as part of a church service where only God is to be glorified.....hmmmm.....another biblical glitch. Pastor Randy has obviously great influence on his church members...is he a shepherd who keeps his sheep safe or a man who uses his influence to take them where he wants to?
Do I see the character of God thru any of those practices....no I do not.

That is where, Buffman, you are to use your spiritual discernment to distinguish the character of God thru anyone who claims to do His Work.

NFLP... I believe the church is cultic too. I know also that you are a direct witness of those facts as you have been there yourself in person and none of what you report to us is "hearsay".
Living in Tampa myself I am well aware of the growing concern many christians in this area have expressed about that particular church. The Tampa Tribune published an article recently reporting the various activities conducted by the Whites.....the article was ambiguous as to the purpose of amassing such wealth thru the church members. There was no direct attack but it was obvious it was presented as questionable.
Buffman, I will be glad to share privately scriptures with you which challenge such practices in ANY church.
We need to be very vigilant. Gentle as a dove but intelligent as a snake.

Assuming that a church becomes so wealthy because God blesses it and anoints it, is a human misconception of God's Character. Blessings are not necessarly related to wealth or numbers. Reread the judgement of the Seven churches in Revelation.....pay attention to the description of what God considers a faithful and serving church. See where Without Walls might fit....
I say NO to the political endorsement of any candidate in any church service. Not different from the cattle and merchants Christ drove away from the Temple.

NFLP our book warns us of the coming of people such as Benny Hinn. We ought to be able to discern what is authentic as God's manifestation and what is not. I am moved by the fact that a non believer has more discernment than so many believers. God works in mysterious ways indeed.

Sabine Grant · 10-03-2002, 04:12 AM

Dear Buffman... I went to the site reporternews and I wonder if you realize that it points to the contradictions Without Walls present. One statement that really got to me is the misuse of the concept that " Jesus is always attracted to those who do not have enough". When Christ's teachings are so clearly that we have all we need in Him. Since when Christians are to believe that wealth is what they need and the " not enough"is about any material concept? Please tear those blinders off your eyes and rather than questioning NFLP's report and how he got this information, ask yourself how much money that political candidate gave to the church to insure that the pastor would use his obvious influence to get him plenty of votes.
Reread what the early christian church was about and how the wealth of some was to be used to support the widow and the orphan. The 10% tithing is to be used to support the needy not to indulge the elders into outragious material"comfort".
Is Christ the model or not? if you are a christian then He is your model and anyone so called anointed individual who deviates from that model is to be questionned.
Christianity has unfortunatly repelled so many from God because of the obscene use we have made of the model of Christ. It is time to clean up our act.

NFLP · 10-03-2002, 08:52 AM

Sabine,

I, too, inferred that Buffman was a Christian who was intent on defending the cultic WWIC. As I re-read his post and links, it now becomes a little ambiguous.

I applaud non-neurotic Christians like you who are not bullied by the pharisees.

4th Generation Atheist · 10-03-2002, 09:17 AM

Uh, guys, Buff's not a Christian....

<...back, back, Buffman! I think they're just trying to be NICE!...

>

NFLP · 10-03-2002, 03:16 PM

Thanks for the clarification.

Sabine is devoutly Christian and I am devoutly not.

Mageth · 10-03-2002, 03:24 PM

Uh, guys, Buff's not a Christian....

Listing his beliefs as "Non-Supernaturalist" in his profile is pretty much a dead giveaway...

NFLP · 10-03-2002, 04:06 PM

Didn't know one could see another's profile. Well pat my head and call me Junior!

10-02-2002, 05:27 PM	#1
NFLP Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Southeast Posts: 150	Pastoral endorsement of Candidate On the Sunday before the recent primary election in Florida, state senator Jones---who was running for the Democrat gubernatorial spot---spoke during services at Without Walls International Church in Tampa. Pastor Randy White instructed the congregation to vote for Jones. Is this within legal guidelines? White is a Benny Hinn-like, faith healing, tongue speaker who lives in a 2.2 million dollar house and wears $1200 dollar suits. This is a cult and you wouldn't believe how the neurotic people carry on. White and his co-pastor wife Paula really work the crowd for a tithe and two offerings at each service. Last Sunday, Paula had the doors closed and demanded that the flock "come into obedience" and would be dismissed when everyone made a pledge to supply $1000 by the end of the year----in addition to the tithe demanded by God. These folks have got to be dirty somewhere along the way. How does one expose them to the law? [ October 03, 2002: Message edited by: NFLP ]</p>

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10-02-2002, 05:46 PM	#2
GaryP Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Lancaster, OH Posts: 1,792	It sounds highly questionable to me. You could contact Americans United. They seem highly interested in cases such as this. <a href="http://www.au.org/contact.htm" target="_blank">au.org</a> You would probably get a more immediate response by calling them. [ October 02, 2002: Message edited by: GaryP ]</p>

10-03-2002, 01:28 AM	#3
Buffman Beloved Deceased Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: central Florida Posts: 3,546	NFLP May I inquire how you came by this information? Thank you. For those who may not be familiar with this outfit/gang, here are some general hyperlinks. Without Walls International Church (WWIC) was birthed in 1991 with a heart and call for evangelism and restoration. Equipped with a vision larger than man's ability to fulfill, God imparted a mandate within the hearts of Pastors Randy and Paula White to take the gospel to the nations of the world through the threshold of Tampa, Florida. Starting with only five people, WWIC began to grow at an exponential rate and quickly became identified as the second fastest growing church in the nation by the Church Growth Institute. Now, a few short years after inception, God has thrust WWIC into the nations of the world. Ministering to more than 12,000 people on a weekly basis, the city has become the congregation and the world has become the mission. <a href="http://newsletters.cephasministry.com/church_without_walls.html" target="_blank">http://newsletters.cephasministry.com/church_without_walls.html</a> <a href="http://www.reporternews.com/1999/religion/waters0731.html" target="_blank">http://www.reporternews.com/1999/religion/waters0731.html</a> <a href="http://www.paulawhite.org/mini.asp" target="_blank">http://www.paulawhite.org/mini.asp</a> <a href="http://www.sptimes.com/News/122201/Hillsborough/The_charity_of_stripp.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.sptimes.com/News/122201/Hillsborough/The_charity_of_stripp.shtml</a> <a href="http://www.charismamag.com/online/articledisplay.pl?ArticleID=6603" target="_blank">http://www.charismamag.com/online/articledisplay.pl?ArticleID=6603</a> <a href="http://www.livefromstudiob.com/index.cfm/fa/artist/id/63" target="_blank">http://www.livefromstudiob.com/index.cfm/fa/artist/id/63</a> Here's the insightful one. <a href="http://gophell.com/holytrucks-4-30-02.htm" target="_blank">http://gophell.com/holytrucks-4-30-02.htm</a> [ October 03, 2002: Message edited by: Buffman ]</p>

10-03-2002, 03:13 AM	#4
Sabine Grant Talk Freethought Staff Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 32,364	Dear Buffman and NFLP..... I will try to remain as objective as I can to try to balance both of your comments. Being a believer, I recognize how God will utilize a body of believers to manifest His intent to expand goodness onto others....however when it comes to utilizing means which are not even supported by the book, we christians consider as a manual for behavior and guidelines in our faith, it is clear to me that those means are there to benefit the so called "anointed ones". Pastor Randy's home was not turned into a homeless shelter..... was it? the use of a Mercedes is not a requirement to visit the poor and the sick and those who are in jail. The practice of demanding tithes in a threatening manner has no biblical justification. You do not get cheerful givers as you intimidate church members. As to the endorsement of a political candidate as part of a church service where only God is to be glorified.....hmmmm.....another biblical glitch. Pastor Randy has obviously great influence on his church members...is he a shepherd who keeps his sheep safe or a man who uses his influence to take them where he wants to? Do I see the character of God thru any of those practices....no I do not. That is where, Buffman, you are to use your spiritual discernment to distinguish the character of God thru anyone who claims to do His Work. NFLP... I believe the church is cultic too. I know also that you are a direct witness of those facts as you have been there yourself in person and none of what you report to us is "hearsay". Living in Tampa myself I am well aware of the growing concern many christians in this area have expressed about that particular church. The Tampa Tribune published an article recently reporting the various activities conducted by the Whites.....the article was ambiguous as to the purpose of amassing such wealth thru the church members. There was no direct attack but it was obvious it was presented as questionable. Buffman, I will be glad to share privately scriptures with you which challenge such practices in ANY church. We need to be very vigilant. Gentle as a dove but intelligent as a snake. Assuming that a church becomes so wealthy because God blesses it and anoints it, is a human misconception of God's Character. Blessings are not necessarly related to wealth or numbers. Reread the judgement of the Seven churches in Revelation.....pay attention to the description of what God considers a faithful and serving church. See where Without Walls might fit.... I say NO to the political endorsement of any candidate in any church service. Not different from the cattle and merchants Christ drove away from the Temple. NFLP our book warns us of the coming of people such as Benny Hinn. We ought to be able to discern what is authentic as God's manifestation and what is not. I am moved by the fact that a non believer has more discernment than so many believers. God works in mysterious ways indeed.

10-03-2002, 04:12 AM	#5
Sabine Grant Talk Freethought Staff Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 32,364	Dear Buffman... I went to the site reporternews and I wonder if you realize that it points to the contradictions Without Walls present. One statement that really got to me is the misuse of the concept that " Jesus is always attracted to those who do not have enough". When Christ's teachings are so clearly that we have all we need in Him. Since when Christians are to believe that wealth is what they need and the " not enough"is about any material concept? Please tear those blinders off your eyes and rather than questioning NFLP's report and how he got this information, ask yourself how much money that political candidate gave to the church to insure that the pastor would use his obvious influence to get him plenty of votes. Reread what the early christian church was about and how the wealth of some was to be used to support the widow and the orphan. The 10% tithing is to be used to support the needy not to indulge the elders into outragious material"comfort". Is Christ the model or not? if you are a christian then He is your model and anyone so called anointed individual who deviates from that model is to be questionned. Christianity has unfortunatly repelled so many from God because of the obscene use we have made of the model of Christ. It is time to clean up our act.

10-03-2002, 08:52 AM	#6
NFLP Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Southeast Posts: 150	Sabine, I, too, inferred that Buffman was a Christian who was intent on defending the cultic WWIC. As I re-read his post and links, it now becomes a little ambiguous. I applaud non-neurotic Christians like you who are not bullied by the pharisees.

10-03-2002, 09:17 AM	#7
4th Generation Atheist Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Tower of Ecthelion...by the Starbuck's Posts: 1,815	Uh, guys, Buff's not a Christian.... <...back, back, Buffman! I think they're just trying to be NICE!... >

10-03-2002, 03:16 PM	#8
NFLP Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Southeast Posts: 150	Thanks for the clarification. Sabine is devoutly Christian and I am devoutly not.

10-03-2002, 03:24 PM	#9
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Uh, guys, Buff's not a Christian.... Listing his beliefs as "Non-Supernaturalist" in his profile is pretty much a dead giveaway...

10-03-2002, 04:06 PM	#10
NFLP Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Southeast Posts: 150	Didn't know one could see another's profile. Well pat my head and call me Junior!

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