factfinder

As a non-academic type, I have done much reading through various forums on various sites regarding the 'legitimacy' of Christianity and Atheism.

This is my humble observation: The bantering over such things as the historicity of the Gospels, the existence of God, the Character of God, Science versus the Bible, etc.. will never cease.

Both the Christian & Atheistic camps plead an open & shut case where the merit of their facts speak for themselves. No one person has adequately served as judge & jury to settle the debate.

The quandry, in my estimation, resides in the following cause: those that feel a need to be spirtually connected to an eternal destiny will tend to believe in some form of deity. Those that don't feel this requirement will disbelieve. Atheists will call this the 'crutch' effect, Christians will call this faith.

End of story....Let's shake the dust off our feet & agree to disagree. That is, until Christians can introduce the physical Jesus to the atheist or the atheist can produce substantial historical documentation showing the 'fraud' of the existence of Jesus & explain the survival of such a huge following over the past 2000 years.

:banghead:

braces_for_impact

Ok, you heard him everyone, this website is CLOSED!

No need to argue, because we'll never find a solution...

Or could there be other reasons people hang out here?

Hmmmmm...

factfinder

Braces_For_Impact,

What are your reasons for hanging out here?

Isn't it fruitless to argue about something that you don't believe in?????? Has the Christian faith affecting your life adversely somehow? I mean, it is no different than believing in Santa Claus or UFO's, right (assuming of course that you don't believe in them)?

My motivation is to find out what drives belief & disbelief. I am interested in the arguments but have yet to see anyone converted (or inverted) because of arguments on either side of the fence.

If I didn't believe in anything supernatural, I wouldn't waste my time debating about something that means nothing to me (especially if I thought that this life is all we had for I would have better things to spend my time on). For example, I don't spend much time debating the existence of Santa or the Tooth Fairy.

I'm not intending to be sarcastic; just explain to me why one would bother refuting faith? I mean who cares about a bunch of disillusioned people who hold some mythological figure as their saviour? As long as they don't get in your way, right?

Admittedly, I don't understand the motives, so I am asking for an explanation.

Have at it!

emotional

factfinder,

We're talking about jihad here. The Christians have their jihad (or crusade) to save people from eternal hellfire, and the atheists have their jihad to save the world from theistic fanaticism. There's a lot at stake for both sides.

So the debates will never end.

Jobar

Welcome, factfinder. Your questions are valid, and certainly worth discussing, but this particular forum is not the proper venue. I'm moving this thread to General Religious Discussions.

factfinder

Emotional,

Here we go...we're getting to the meat of the topic now.

Christians are definitely trying to save the atheist from eternal hellfire.

What are humanists trying to save Christians from? If it gives them peace why not leave the poor buggers (like me) alone? I don't intend to tell my kids about Santa but I will let them find out about it for themselves...why? because it's fun & harmless.

What is it that you feel we Christians need to be saved from?

factfinder

Jobar,

Thanks.

It seems my lack of academic expertise has been exposed once again.

Man, it's hard being humiliated time & time again. Oh well, there must be some philosopher who says humility is a great virtue!

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.

pariah

Can you please explain to me how taoism has had such a huge following over the past 2500 years?

Can you please explain to me how islam has had such a huge following over the past 1600 years?

Can you please explain to me how judaism has had such a huge following over the past 2000+ (sorry, I don't know exactly how far back the religion goes) years?

What about hinduism? It's been around for about 3750 years. One billion Indians can't be wrong.

What about buddhism? It started to become really popular about 1800 years ago. It has, to this day, a huge following.

Ad populum, my friend, is a popular but fallacious argument for Christianity. And with that, I bid you adieu.

braces_for_impact

There's a recent thread on this if you're interested in why theists and atheists frequent this board. Myself, I come here for the camaraderie and I enjoy the intellectual conversation. There are other topics on this site other than the traditional theistic/atheistic arguments. Also, I find a sense of belonging on a board which is atheist in majority when the country I live in is quite the opposite.

Not at all. In fact, I think an exchange of ideas is great mental excercise, regardless of topic. I am personally fascinated by theology, and so those type of topics automatically have a certain amount of draw for me.

Yes it has. I was once a Christian, and when I no longer was, I had to face a certain amount of rejection, and come to terms with being lied to, by people who profess to have a superior morality.

In some ways believing in Santa Claus and UFO's is the same as believing in god, in that none of the above has any evidence for their existence. But belief in god is unique for one reason. People wish to change my life and force their particular brand of morality upon me and others because of their belief in a particular deity. This directly effects me, and if these people have their way it has the potential to directly effect me to a much greater degree.

Also, I am a large supporter of critical thinking in every day life, which is something that is not done now. Every day people are hurt by unsubstantiated claims. Whether it be the sale of magnetic bracelets, or faith healers like Benny Hin who brought in 89 million dollars last year, people are being hurt, some are dying, and no one is held accountable. If by my spread of reason I can prevent even one person being hurt by some snake oil salesman isn't it worth it?

If that is where your interests are, then your welcome to these boards! Watch, listen, post and learn. Incidentally, there have been converts here, and with time you'll be able to figure out who they are.

Again, the Tooth Fairy and Santa Claus are poor examples. I don't believe in the supernatural. But many people do, and are attempting to either hurt people to line their own pockets, or control legislation based on their belief to control what others can and cannot do based on those beliefs. This is dangerous, because beliefs are not based on fact or reason, but superstition. It is the devil wearing an angels' robe, so to speak.

If it was just a matter of people thinking they had a savior, I would think them foolish but not harmful. But, many of these people (not all) feel that because their morality is handed down to them by a supernatural source, it is superior to all other models for morality, and because of this, they seek to force others to behave according to their idea of this morality. Since it is everyone's right to pursue their own happiness in whatever way they can (as long as it hurts no one else) I will stand up to those that would force others to behave as they would see fit, because of of outdated, superstitious beliefs.

Welcome to the boards!

Mageth

Originally posted by factfinder
Christians are definitely trying to save the atheist from eternal hellfire.

What are humanists trying to save Christians from? If it gives them peace why not leave the poor buggers (like me) alone?

I think you'll find the answer in your own post. They don't leave us alone. Christians are relentlessly imposing their superstitions on us in an attempt to save us from their imagined eternal hellfire. Many Christians come here and express incredible opinions about atheists, including that we must be horrible monsters because we have no objective basis for morals, and therefore are capable of engaging in guiltless killing sprees and all sorts of other atrocities, or that we choose to not serve god so we can live or immoral, decadent lives. And for some reason, many Xians here seem to think we atheists somehow reject God, though in our hearts we know he exists, and choose to go to hell.

Not to mention, in the U.S. in particular (and also notice the RCC's edict against homosexual marriage), trying to impose their worldview (including their morals based on a 2000+ year old moral system of a comparatively primitive society) on everyone through political means.

One only has to look at history, as well as current events, to see what religion, esp. exclusive religions like the Abrahamic religions, is capable of inflicting on humankind.

I don't intend to tell my kids about Santa but I will let them find out about it for themselves...why? because it's fun & harmless.

But do you intend to tell them about Jesus, Santa for adults, or let them find out about it themselves? Is he "fun and harmless" as well?

What is it that you feel we Christians need to be saved from?

Superstition.