Freethought & Rationalism Archive

meritocrat · 07-15-2003, 10:52 PM

Is it? Who is to say what views a person can and cannot hold?

Is it only 'wrong' for a person to be bigoted if they ACT on that 'hatred'?

contracycle · 07-16-2003, 01:49 AM

Yes, becuase it means that their decisions are irrational and therefore untrustworthy.

No, although it may not be an offense which is socially punished.

Vandrare · 07-16-2003, 04:18 AM

if someone acts in a bigoted manner, they are affecting other people in many ways, most importantly by creating detrimental effects on a person or group biased against. everyone is entitled to their own private opinion, but when they act on bigoted ideas they are infringing on someone elses personal rights and therefore in the wrong!

:-D Anna

tudal · 07-16-2003, 02:25 PM

Quote:

everyone is entitled to their own private opinion, but when they act on bigoted ideas they are infringing on someone elses personal rights and therefore in the wrong!

The problem is that it's near impossible for someone to act without some influence from their beliefs/opinions.

JerryM · 07-16-2003, 08:29 PM

Again, we should recognize a distinction between public and private behavior. I may chose not to invite an African-American person to my home for no reason other than his race. Yes, that is a morally dubious action. But I think it would a greater evil for society to try to force me to accept someone into my private residence. Now if I have a business, and sell goods or services to the public, I do not have right to act prejudicially towards employees or customers. In that capacity, I am a public accomodation, and my behavior can be justly restricted. Racial/religious/ethnic prejudice is wrong, because it promotes tribalism and impairs a harmonious society. In today's world, different people have to live together. That's a fact of modern life, and it's not going to change. But society has to tolerate some tribalism in private.

tudal · 07-16-2003, 08:54 PM

Quote:

In that capacity, I am a public accomodation, and my behavior can be justly restricted.

It can be restricted, but it isn't -- at least not all the time. For example, if you're an employer who believes that Asian people should never be hired, then you're only going to hire them because (a) by law, you can't discriminate; and/or (b) you wish to maintain some kind of public image. Still, what can (and does) occur is that you mistreat that Asian because of race, but give other reasons for this mistreatment. All these reasons can be valid, too; they're just not primary reason -- race is.

Vandrare · 07-16-2003, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tudal
The problem is that it's near impossible for someone to act without some influence from their beliefs/opinions.

i agree, and thats why people have to be careful how they act regarding these issues.

also, it is possible to think asian people should never be hired, and still treat them fairly in the work place. just so long as rules and regulations apply to everyone and are inforced uniformly. you dont have to be happy about it, just do it.

:-D Anna

long winded fool · 07-17-2003, 03:40 PM

But isn't categorical rejection always illogical? Because a thing falls into a broad general category, is it rational to presume specifics about it without investigation? (a fallacy of composition.) Sure you can't legislate beliefs, but racism, sexism, bigotry and all other forms of categorical rejection are still "wrong" beliefs, in the sense that the only possibility of a correct induction on the bigot's part is by the law of averages. I'm sure he or she can find some people who happen to be asian that should not be hired. The belief that all asians shouldn't be hired is fundamentally irrational and therefore wrong. You can't make this belief illegal, and you shouldn't "call the kettle black" and pass judgement on the bigot, but you can and should label it for what it objectively is.

JerryM · 07-17-2003, 04:41 PM

If, as an employer, you consistently discriminate against certain people because of racial or other such characteristics, eventually it will catch up with you. You'll probably get sued, and even if you can show a legitimate reason for your actions, it will likely cost you a lot of money and time to defend yourself, and the bad publicity may well hurt your business. You can certainly think anything you like, no matter how stupid or irrational. You can do (mostly) anything you want in the privacy of your own home. But in your public dealings, you can expect consequences for irrational behavior.

pariah · 07-17-2003, 06:30 PM

a person has the right to be bigoted, racist, whatever.

a person has the right to act on it as well, as long as it does not infringe on the rights of others. for example, by exercising their freedom of speech (this does not include harrassment).

whether it is morally correct to be bigoted/racist is up to each persons judgement, as nearly every person has their own set of morals.

07-15-2003, 10:52 PM	#1
meritocrat Banned Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: England Posts: 2,608	Is prejudice/bigotry necessarily a bad thing? Is it? Who is to say what views a person can and cannot hold? Is it only 'wrong' for a person to be bigoted if they ACT on that 'hatred'?

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07-16-2003, 01:49 AM	#2
contracycle Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: London Posts: 1,425	Yes, becuase it means that their decisions are irrational and therefore untrustworthy. No, although it may not be an offense which is socially punished.

07-16-2003, 04:18 AM	#3
Vandrare Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Brisneyland Posts: 854	if someone acts in a bigoted manner, they are affecting other people in many ways, most importantly by creating detrimental effects on a person or group biased against. everyone is entitled to their own private opinion, but when they act on bigoted ideas they are infringing on someone elses personal rights and therefore in the wrong! :-D Anna

07-16-2003, 08:29 PM	#5
JerryM Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: St. Louis, MO. Posts: 1,100	Again, we should recognize a distinction between public and private behavior. I may chose not to invite an African-American person to my home for no reason other than his race. Yes, that is a morally dubious action. But I think it would a greater evil for society to try to force me to accept someone into my private residence. Now if I have a business, and sell goods or services to the public, I do not have right to act prejudicially towards employees or customers. In that capacity, I am a public accomodation, and my behavior can be justly restricted. Racial/religious/ethnic prejudice is wrong, because it promotes tribalism and impairs a harmonious society. In today's world, different people have to live together. That's a fact of modern life, and it's not going to change. But society has to tolerate some tribalism in private.

07-17-2003, 03:40 PM	#8
long winded fool Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: USA Posts: 2,113	But isn't categorical rejection always illogical? Because a thing falls into a broad general category, is it rational to presume specifics about it without investigation? (a fallacy of composition.) Sure you can't legislate beliefs, but racism, sexism, bigotry and all other forms of categorical rejection are still "wrong" beliefs, in the sense that the only possibility of a correct induction on the bigot's part is by the law of averages. I'm sure he or she can find some people who happen to be asian that should not be hired. The belief that all asians shouldn't be hired is fundamentally irrational and therefore wrong. You can't make this belief illegal, and you shouldn't "call the kettle black" and pass judgement on the bigot, but you can and should label it for what it objectively is.

07-17-2003, 04:41 PM	#9
JerryM Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: St. Louis, MO. Posts: 1,100	If, as an employer, you consistently discriminate against certain people because of racial or other such characteristics, eventually it will catch up with you. You'll probably get sued, and even if you can show a legitimate reason for your actions, it will likely cost you a lot of money and time to defend yourself, and the bad publicity may well hurt your business. You can certainly think anything you like, no matter how stupid or irrational. You can do (mostly) anything you want in the privacy of your own home. But in your public dealings, you can expect consequences for irrational behavior.

07-17-2003, 06:30 PM	#10
pariah Banned Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: الرياض Posts: 6,456	a person has the right to be bigoted, racist, whatever. a person has the right to act on it as well, as long as it does not infringe on the rights of others. for example, by exercising their freedom of speech (this does not include harrassment). whether it is morally correct to be bigoted/racist is up to each persons judgement, as nearly every person has their own set of morals.

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