LupusSolaris

Energy can neither be created or destroyed, only its state can be changed. We are comprised of energy. Then it would stand to reason that when we die its merely our energy converting into an alternate form of its current state, there for we could have bits of our former self being reabsorbed by multiple persons. Does my concept hold water?

crocodile deathroll

I think the key word is not so much energy but "information". We are, I believe the product of information processes and information per se has no well defined boundaries.
We are first a product of genetic information processes and then there is a leap into neural information processes, but it is only the neural information processes that we remember.

I have observed how beliefs in reincarnation emerge in cultures totally independent of each other. And I would not at all be surprised if a civilization in a distant planet in a very distant galaxy would adopt the same belief patterns much more readily than ones similar to the Judeo-Christian belief systems. Why this is so is simple, it's more plausible.

However I very much doubt if anyone can recall the events of those previous lifes, because to the best of our knowledge the brain is all there is to preserve memories. So when you die you be totally oblivious to the fact that you ever existed in the first place. So you would be in a state being subjectively identical never been born at all in the first place. I am more unequivocal about the past life amnesia question. Past life amnesia is total. But because we cannot remember any previous life does not mean that we have not lived that previous life
So we might have forgotten what we have experienced rather than not have had any previous life at all. I do not remember a single day before I was 2 years of age but that does not mean that I did not exist before of was 2. It is the fact that our brains are underdeveloped at birth which explains amnesia in all of us as infants.

This is where I suspect there is a preservation of psychological structure in the universe to make it possible to begin a life in the first place. I suspect this because our brains are all made of matter that in not unique to each of us, as a carbon atom in your brain is identical to a carbon atom in yours. So without the brain to preserve you life's memories you default back to being at one with all matter that constitutes all living brains before they acquired memories. I suspect it is the universe's homogeneity of matter is what preserves the psychological structure in the universe.

My theory is that when you die then with all you memories forgotten, you will never know that you have lived at least one life and being an atheist I do not believe there is any God or deity to remind you that you have ever lived or have any control over you like a cosmic scrutineer so you can live only one possible life.

So with physical matter being so homogenous there is a gestalt switch mechanism that preserves your sense of self when the processes that booted your sense of self into existence becomes paralleled by another brain.



like in this rat man scenario. The simple line drawing on top you see the image of a man because your mind switched to man like images.
But if you gaze at the line drawing below you see the image of a rat. This is a property of the psychological structure in the universe as it enters the threshold of consciousness, it has the potential to switch off all the other perceptions and just be orientated to one worldline. Then when you die you default back to this earlier general psychological structure only to randomly switch off perceptions and reorientate yourself along another worldline like it is a first life experience.
So it is really impossible to subjectively die because you can never observe your own death. That's the bottom line.



Croc

[ December 21, 2002: Message edited by: crocodile deathroll ]</p>

LupusSolaris

Wow, that was a lot of typing you must have done to write all that, all I wanted was a simple yes or no to my question, thanks for the thesis paper though. Oh and by the way, those pics, all I can see are rats, no matter how long I look at the crusty old men.

crocodile deathroll

Complexity is what in my view equals consciousness.
Not energy. Otherwise a nuclear explosion would be more conscious than I am.

Beoran

If past life amnezia is total, then I think the reincarnation you propose is irrelevant. Each life "I" lead and will lead will be completely different and unconnected. In each of these lives the I will be completely different from the one "I" was before. If that is the case, then what is the point of calling it reincarnation? I'd call it mere "recycling".

catman

No.

Shadowy Man

Yes, just like bits of an apple are absorbed into your current self.

It's not the pieces of matter that count it is the specific arrangement of those pieces.

My cat is just a big bag of cat food and a bottle of water. He's just arranged in a manner that produces a thinking, moving animal. When he dies, and his parts get rearranged, he will become as inanimate as a bag of cat food and a bottle of water.

[ December 21, 2002: Message edited by: Shadowy Man ]</p>

catman

I can't buy into that energy is neither created nor destroyed. What happens to my atoms if I am cremated? What happens if I am put in a hermetically sealed casket?

PotatoError

I agree with crocodile deathroll that conciousness is mostly a product of complexity.

I also believe this complex system has to be arranged in a certain way for conciousness to manifest (like Shadowy Man said).

A human brain is an example of such a complex system arranged in a way that conciousness can manifest.

A person is made up of their memories which are states in the brain. What you like and don't like and feel and believe and remember are all stored in the brain.

There is no information left which the conciousness can contain. Therefore the conciousness must store no information about a person. It simply allows us to percieve what the brain stores, it allows us to percieve ourselves.

When the brain stops functioning, the accompanying conciousness is lost.

Reincarnation claims that this lost conciousness will later reappear in another complex system.

This is true but not in the way reincarnation means. The conciousness that was just lost didn't have any defining characteristics at all. In fact I would argue that *everyone's* conciousness is exactly the same (of course there is nothing to measure so you can't even say that!).
So reincarnation is meaningless. As Beoran said I'd call it mere "recycling".

Hence everyone around you could be considered a "reincarnation" of yourself.

A sidenote:
If I took my brain and copied it *exactly* into another person would we both have the same conciousness? No, conciousness is local to it's host (the brain).


Of course this is just my opinion. Blast it if you want.

[ December 21, 2002: Message edited by: PotatoError ]</p>

faustuz

You posted to a philosophy forum and all you wanted was a yes or no answer? You must be new to this sort of thing.

Oh and, by the way, no.

And yes.

[ Message edited by: faustuz because he realized that our ephemeral poster was on to something.]

[ December 22, 2002: Message edited by: faustuz ]</p>