beyelzu

evilmilkman,

I know of only a handful of christians who dont get all judgemental about atheism, regardless of how the atheist acts and 2 of them post here. I doubt that the youth minister will ever tell you gfriend that you are a good guy. cuz no matter how you act you are still a godless unbeliever.

good luck, but when he starts preaching to you, and he will, you might as well start back with logic. remain calm. he probably wont. and you want to appear calm and rational especially in comparison cuz the person that you are doing this for is going to be in the audience.

Evil Milkman

I suppose I should plan for the worst. As I mentioned, I think my girlfriend might be getting to the point where she is starting to think a little more for herself. If she sees me acting rationally and calmly in front a worst case scenario youth minister, she may side with me. I hope.

beyelzu

Good luck, evil milkman.

I dont envy you. I personally try not to date the religious or militant non smokers. It just doesnt work out. I do think that you are prepared.


One, suggestion.

Check out the various threads around here that are on the historicity of jesus. When you ask why xianity, he is likely to counter with this argument. I have seen this used effectively several times on atheists. Because many of us know the logical arguments against an omnimax god and contradictions in the bible but ignore new testaments. When you dont have an answer for arguments revolving around Christ as in the gospels, it can make your case look really weak.

David M. Payne

Evil Milkman you could try this line from this thread, Is God the Biggest Mass Murderer of all Time?
"Religious scholars often point to the “free will” argument, to explain away this murderous and barbaric behavior by religious zealots. So lets look at one disturbing example of God’s, not man’s, behavior, the great flood and Noah’s ark. (Geneses 6-9) God drowns everyone but Noah and his family for their “corruption”. OK, what sin and corruption did the babies and little children of these people, or for that matter the animals on this planet, commit? None. I guess they were in the wrong place at the wrong time, right? Is mass murder the only answer an omnipotent God had for this sinful behavior? In our time this would be called genocide, the first recorded instance I believe. But for the true believer it is the work of a “just” and “merciful” God? Not in my book."

It has been a question that none of the theists here have been able to defeat in their arguments. Hope it is helpful for you.

David

"God and religion, the oldest scam in history, and it still sucks them in today, so free your mind, and your body will follow!"

Amos

?????????

I object but will not explain because you will just say "duh."

Amos

What I don't understand is why Evil Milkman owes the preacher an explanation.

Do you really think the Catholic priest knows who goes to church or not? or that he really cares? Just think, in some parishes with 2 priests and sometimes 6 shows a day, how could he keep track? And why would he?

Proctors_Gambit

Ok, couple of things...
1. You do realise that the Girl you are in love with believes, if she is in fact a christian, that when you die, you will go to hell and burn for eternity.
What's more, she believes you deserve this and that it is "just" because you made a choice to reject Christ.

2. That out of the way Here's the only scenario I can see panning out.
You ask questions.
He'll cobble up some answer for you.
You wont be satisfied with said answer.
He'll tell you you will understand only if you let Jesus and the holy spirit into your heart
You'll explain that you wont do that while these questions remain unanswered.

He wont be converted to your way of thinking no matter how many 'stumper' type questions you pose.

You wont be converted to his way of thinking no matter how he rationalises away your 'stumper' type questions.

Nothing gained here.

Basically you're wasting a night you could spend playing "halo" on the xbox

-Gambit

David M. Payne

Well just go to the thread and show me I am wrong Amos. I've sure said a lot more than "duh" there.

David

"God and religion, the oldest scam in history, and it still sucks them in today, so free your mind, and your body will follow!"

Writer@Large

... and there's that assumption of existence again.

I've been at that point in conversations before. And I used to do that--"Well, I can't open my heart because I think it's all wrong!" And then one day, a particularly wily opponent came back with: "So you admit Jesus is there, and you're just keeping your heart closed?" And I went ... and quickly reformulated my answer.

Remember, Evil Milkman: theists operate under the assumption that God exists, without a doubt, without debate. Look for that assumption in every question the YP asks, in every statement he makes, and don't fall into it yourself. If he says "You just have to let Jesus in your heart," tell him that if Jesus existed and was who he said he was, he could just perform a miracle and open your heart himself; or, that it's your mind, not your heart, that you're keeping open (and why won't the YP do the same?); or, that even making such an argument as "open your heart" is loaded with the assumption of existence and begs the very question the two of you are discussing. Anything but "I can't until ... "

--W@L

The Other Michael

The first thing you do in a debate situation is define the terms, just so everyone has a chance of talking about the same thing.

Have the youth minister define "GOD" to you - in detail. With any luck you can punch a number of holes in what he says (the omnimax problem, etc) or just resort to the "I'm sorry, but none of that makes any sense to me" response, and never get any farther than that.

Also remember that theism has a LOT of presuppositions, and as was mentioned you don't want to accede to any of them. Take a look at what's the deal with presuppositionalism? for more information on that.

cheers,
Michael