Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Evil Milkman · 01-27-2003, 03:36 PM

(Grr... I mispelled "Minister" in my title... please don't make fun of me)

I talked with my girlfriend last night and she mentioned that it would be good to sit down with her and her youth minister soon and ask him my questions concerning the god of the Bible. My girlfriend is a Christian, and I'm a relatively new agnostic-atheist, but she is very understanding and very supportive. She loves me.

Anyway, we'll probably talk about my questions on a Friday night or something when we can have a lot of time and pizza. So, in planning for it, I've wrote up a rough draft of my questions that I'm going to ask him. I wrote in letter form, so my points come across plainly on paper. I'll let him read it, take as much time as he needs, and then we can discuss my questions. I will make it plain, though, that he must defend Christianity and not attack my lack of belief. I'm confident that he'll be civil, though.

Here are my questions below that I've written out, but feel free to post your own additions and comments/suggestions after you read. Much of the information below was taken from J'raxis. I had nearly the same ideas that he had, but he wrote this a long time ago and has had much time to edit it. Also, his ideas are very easily understood.

So, here are my questions about the god of the Bible.

Quote:

Before we get started, I'd like us to define Yahweh first. I know that most Christians would define him as follows: eternal, all powerful, and all knowing. He sees everything past and future, creator of everything, all good, all loving, and perfectly just. He is a personal God who experiences every emotion that a human may experience. Christians may say that God's creation was originally perfect. But two humans, they say, brought sin into the world by disobeying Him. Humans are born evil and sinful, and because of this, all humans must suffer in this world because of their sinfulness. God gives us humans the opportunity to accept forgiveness for their sins, and all who accept His one and Only Son will be rewarded with eternal bliss in heaven. But while they are on earth, they must suffer. All humans who choose not to accept this forgiveness must go to hell and be tormented for eternity.

With that said, if the God of the Bible is all of these things, I have a few questions about the issues that bother me.

1. An eternity before God created man, He must have known that Satan would have a negative influence on his most beloved beings, his created humans. So, when He did create the universe(s), wouldn't He have known long before He created humans that they would disobey Him? Also, wouldn't He have known what damage Satan would have done in the first place? If He knew about the destruction and evil influence Satan would cause humans but didn't do anything to prevent or deter The Evil One from carrying out his evil plan, then that portrays an idea to me. This �all-loving� God must have not cared whether or not Satan�s negative influence harmed humans. If God did not indeed know that Satan would make Him angry by influencing humans negatively, then God is not all-knowing. This means that God couldn't have existed in the first place. Also, we can just take out Satan out of the picture altogether. Let�s say that humans were created perfect, and that perfection was destroyed when the Adam and Eve�s sinful nature took over. If this sinful nature angers God, then why, logically, didn�t He snap His fingers get rid of sin right then and there? After all, if God is all-powerful and all knowing, surely He knew about the sin before it even happened and would have done something to destroy sin before even one person went to eternal torment.. The only conclusion I can come to is that either, 1) God doesn�t care that sin is in the world, or 2) He is not all powerful, all loving, all knowing, etc. If he isn�t even one of these attributes, then He must be impossible, logically.

2. Why does hell exist, and why isn�t it there just for Satan? Surely if God loves us so much but also hates Satan, why isn�t it only Satan that will be tormented for all eternity. For example, if God knows that Jim is going to go to hell when he dies, no matter what happens while Jim is living, then does God really care about Jim? If God knows that Jim will reject him somehow, and God would know this, then why doesn�t God help Jim believe, however He may do this? God either doesn�t really care that Jim seeks Him out, or God isn�t powerful enough to help Jim believe. If He isn�t powerful enough to help Jim believe, then He can�t exist. If He doesn�t prevent Jim from burning in hell for all eternity, he really doesn�t care one way or the other. There is no concept of trying with an all-powerful god.

3.Emotions. An omniscient and eternal being cannot be surprised, be angered, get jealous, receive happiness, etc� Humans experience emotions because of the gain of new knowledge. For example, Alex may be upset when learning that his dog had run away. But an all-knowing god is ignorant of nothing whatsoever. Nothing is new to him, nothing can be revealed to him, so in essence, there is no new gained knowledge that God would react to emotionally. We humans experience anger and frustration when something is wrong which we cannot fix. The perfect, omnipotent God, however, can fix anything. Humans experience longing for things we lack. The perfect God lacks nothing.
4. God is omniscient. When he created the universe, he saw the sufferings that humans would endure as a result of the sin of those original humans. He heard the screams of the damned. Surely he would have known that it would have been better for those humans to never have been born (in fact, the Bible says this very thing), and surely this all-compassionate deity would have foregone the creation of a universe destined to imperfection in which many of the humans were doomed to eternal suffering. A perfectly compassionate being who creates beings which He knows are doomed to suffer is impossible.

That's it so far.

What kind of responses is he likely to give? I'm expecting that Matt (the youth minister) will constantly refer to Jesus Christ and what his suffering and resurrection means for humanity. How should I counter this argument? I've got the idea, but it's hard to put it into words. Maybe something like, "Why is there even a need for Christ if God is all knowing, all powerful, and all loving? What is God's obsession for bloodshed all about? If God did everything right from the beginning, He wouldn't have a need to cause more suffering...etc..."

Also, another rebuttal I'll probably receive is that, "God's plan is His justice, nothing is greater." I would respond to that with saying something to the degree of, "How can you justify suffering and hell while using these self-defining characteristics? Aren't you just using circular reasoning? What makes it so that God's plan is so just and great? And why does He even need a plan in the first place if He can do anything at anytime?" Hmmm... Any thoughts?

I was considering using "It" for god's name instead of "He", but I think that would either make Matt angry or make him not take me very seriously.

Anyway, what do you think of this letter so far? If there is anything that you would like to add to it, please post your ideas here. I'd appreciate any help. I'm new to debating, but I am looking forward a friendly discussion with Matt.

(editd alot becuse i realy canot speel.. at al)

Rusting Car Bumper · 01-27-2003, 03:49 PM

I must ask a question. Why is any of this important and even relevant?

I would ask more relevant questions.
"As a youth pastor, how can my GF and I get along even though we have different religious views?"

"Why don't Christians acknowledge that Chrsitians and non-Chrsitians usually hold the same personal values and are concerned about the same interpersonal problems?"

"How can we better find out what atheists and Christians have in common?"

DC

SanDiegoAtheist · 01-27-2003, 04:37 PM

A very good subject to bring up is justice (in fact, you probably won't have to, as your question about 'hell' would probably lead in some way to the YM discussing God being "perfectly just" as well as "perfectly benevolent" (odd combo all by itself there anyway).

The entire Christian religion is based on the notion of "substantive sacrifice" - really, the only thing that makes its theology substantially different from Judaism - that God sent his only son to die for OUR sins. This, of course, when you actually look at it, is incoherent. There is no possible way that justice can be served by punishing the innocent, which is what Jesus was claimed to be. Only if God has a completely different definition of 'justice' is this possible, in which case it's a word game, since OUR definition of 'justice' surely does NOT include 'substantive sacrifice' - hence God can not be 'perfectly just' by our definition of justice.

Indeed, this is an excellent point to bring up, btw, if you ever have any person telling you that our legal system was founded on Xian principles - since, at its heart, the Xian religion is based on a concept which is completely anathema to every legal code followed in the Western world - the idea that an innocent can 'stand in' so to speak, and atone for ANOTHER person(s) moral wrongdoing.

Cheers,

The San Diego Atheist

Psycho Economist · 01-27-2003, 04:56 PM

My only hope that this doesn't turn out to be some sort of "soul-saving" intervention or an ambush debate spectacle for the amusement of the youth group. It doesn't sound like it would be... but whenever I hear "talk to a pastor" that's what pops into my mind.

The questions you ask are pretty standard opening salvo debate questions, and I'm sure he's been well-versed in the textbook answers. Start thinking of rebuttals now: search the forum archives, if you have time (and bandwidth).

My characterization of potential replies is, of course, colored by anti-fundamentalist cynicism. But if he's the slightest bit more conservative than Universalist Unitarianism (or maybe Catholic), he'll tell you the answers are in the Bible itself.......... just a question of how true that Bible is.

1: The Fall was the first step in an elaborate plan to cull the truly faithful from the unworthy. God knew it would happen, and intended for it to happen. What he wants is to cultivate 144,000 celibate male yes-men with no concept of reality to fill the ranks of his eternal ego-stroking chorus of their own volition.

2: It's not God's fault you're going to hell. You are already condemned because of your fallen / sinful / imperfect nature. Salvation is there for the taking or refusing. All you have to do is say you that you suck, that you believe the world is flat and that neuroscience is a lie, and a seat in the choir loft will be waiting for you.

3: God transcends human understanding, he's that omnipotent. Worldly psychology doesn't apply. Maybe he has feelings, maybe he doesn't. And what a perfect being who lacks an all-volunteer chorus to tell him how great he is for all eternity... is an all-volunteer chorus to tell him how great he is for all eternity. Sure, he could conjure up one himself... that's what angels are for. But they're not really volunteers.

4: Salvation is yours for the taking or the refusing. If you refuse salvation, eternal torture is the choice you make by default. He's giving you exactly what you asked for: I can't think of anything more compassionate.

And now that I'm done scaring everyone, including myself... I wish you the best of luck. I only hope that my answers present a worst-case scenario that made you

and

, and got you thinking of counter-arguments.

01-27-2003, 05:30 PM

Better take him to the bar instead where you tell him that a Catholic friend of yours has convinced you that you are in so much bondage over religion that hell can't be any worse and so you have nothing to lose by quitting. If he doesn't like it tell him to go fuck himself and if you can't do that with a straight face you prove the Catholic is right in his assessment of your situation.

01-27-2003, 08:13 PM

Ask him why god placed the earth in an orbit that guarantees that it will be struck by large, dangeorous asteroids from time to time. Did these asteroids exist before the Fall?

Amie · 01-27-2003, 08:49 PM

If he tries to convert you just tell him you are 3rd in line for master celtic witch and you don't want to ruin your seniority

No, In all seriousness Evil Milkman I think what you have there is just great. Have fun...

seesaw · 01-27-2003, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by atheist_in_foxhole
Ask him why god placed the earth in an orbit that guarantees that it will be struck by large, dangeorous asteroids from time to time. Did these asteroids exist before the Fall?

lol

Tercel · 01-27-2003, 09:08 PM

Er, Evil Milkman:
As far as hard questions for Christians go, those aren't them. Even the most fundamentalist, theological ignoramous, of a youth pastor should be able to produce plausible answers to the great majority of those.
(I would give you them, but I don't have the time)

SanDiegoAtheist:

Quote:

The entire Christian religion is based on the notion of "substantive sacrifice".... that God sent his only son to die for OUR sins.... There is no possible way that justice can be served by punishing the innocent, which is what Jesus was claimed to be. Only if God has a completely different definition of 'justice' is this possible, in which case it's a word game, since OUR definition of 'justice' surely does NOT include 'substantive sacrifice' - hence God can not be 'perfectly just' by our definition of justice.

....at its heart, the Xian religion is based on a concept which is completely anathema to every legal code followed in the Western world - the idea that an innocent can 'stand in' so to speak, and atone for ANOTHER person(s) moral wrongdoing.

The idea you describe here was invented by the theologian Anselm around the 10th century AD, and has since obtained fairly large support in most of conservative western Christianity. ie perhaps half of Christians for half of Christian history have believed it. Thus, I think to say that "the entire Christian religion" is based on this idea, is a BIT of an overstatement.

Strawberry · 01-27-2003, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Amos
Better take him to the bar instead where you tell him that a Catholic friend of yours has convinced you that you are in so much bondage over religion that hell can't be any worse and so you have nothing to lose by quitting. If he doesn't like it tell him to go fuck himself and if you can't do that with a straight face you prove the Catholic is right in his assessment of your situation.

This is my actual reason for leaving xtianity (Protestant) and you have just blatantly made fun of it. Making all the psychological pain I've run into as a result of the whole hell and having-to-be-perfect-to-go-to-heaven thing seem trivial. Making me really, really fucking angry. So much for your argument that Catholics are better than Protestants.

Gaaaaahhh!

01-27-2003, 03:49 PM	#2
Rusting Car Bumper Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: U.S. Posts: 4,171	Re: I'm Going To Question A Youth Minsiter About God I must ask a question. Why is any of this important and even relevant? I would ask more relevant questions. "As a youth pastor, how can my GF and I get along even though we have different religious views?" "Why don't Christians acknowledge that Chrsitians and non-Chrsitians usually hold the same personal values and are concerned about the same interpersonal problems?" "How can we better find out what atheists and Christians have in common?" DC

01-27-2003, 05:30 PM	#5
Amos Guest Posts: n/a	Re: I'm Going To Question A Youth Minister About God Better take him to the bar instead where you tell him that a Catholic friend of yours has convinced you that you are in so much bondage over religion that hell can't be any worse and so you have nothing to lose by quitting. If he doesn't like it tell him to go fuck himself and if you can't do that with a straight face you prove the Catholic is right in his assessment of your situation.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

01-27-2003, 04:37 PM	#3
SanDiegoAtheist Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: San Diego, CA, USA Posts: 281	A very good subject to bring up is justice (in fact, you probably won't have to, as your question about 'hell' would probably lead in some way to the YM discussing God being "perfectly just" as well as "perfectly benevolent" (odd combo all by itself there anyway). The entire Christian religion is based on the notion of "substantive sacrifice" - really, the only thing that makes its theology substantially different from Judaism - that God sent his only son to die for OUR sins. This, of course, when you actually look at it, is incoherent. There is no possible way that justice can be served by punishing the innocent, which is what Jesus was claimed to be. Only if God has a completely different definition of 'justice' is this possible, in which case it's a word game, since OUR definition of 'justice' surely does NOT include 'substantive sacrifice' - hence God can not be 'perfectly just' by our definition of justice. Indeed, this is an excellent point to bring up, btw, if you ever have any person telling you that our legal system was founded on Xian principles - since, at its heart, the Xian religion is based on a concept which is completely anathema to every legal code followed in the Western world - the idea that an innocent can 'stand in' so to speak, and atone for ANOTHER person(s) moral wrongdoing. Cheers, The San Diego Atheist

01-27-2003, 04:56 PM	#4
Psycho Economist Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Peoria, IL Posts: 854	My only hope that this doesn't turn out to be some sort of "soul-saving" intervention or an ambush debate spectacle for the amusement of the youth group. It doesn't sound like it would be... but whenever I hear "talk to a pastor" that's what pops into my mind. The questions you ask are pretty standard opening salvo debate questions, and I'm sure he's been well-versed in the textbook answers. Start thinking of rebuttals now: search the forum archives, if you have time (and bandwidth). My characterization of potential replies is, of course, colored by anti-fundamentalist cynicism. But if he's the slightest bit more conservative than Universalist Unitarianism (or maybe Catholic), he'll tell you the answers are in the Bible itself.......... just a question of how true that Bible is. 1: The Fall was the first step in an elaborate plan to cull the truly faithful from the unworthy. God knew it would happen, and intended for it to happen. What he wants is to cultivate 144,000 celibate male yes-men with no concept of reality to fill the ranks of his eternal ego-stroking chorus of their own volition. 2: It's not God's fault you're going to hell. You are already condemned because of your fallen / sinful / imperfect nature. Salvation is there for the taking or refusing. All you have to do is say you that you suck, that you believe the world is flat and that neuroscience is a lie, and a seat in the choir loft will be waiting for you. 3: God transcends human understanding, he's that omnipotent. Worldly psychology doesn't apply. Maybe he has feelings, maybe he doesn't. And what a perfect being who lacks an all-volunteer chorus to tell him how great he is for all eternity... is an all-volunteer chorus to tell him how great he is for all eternity. Sure, he could conjure up one himself... that's what angels are for. But they're not really volunteers. 4: Salvation is yours for the taking or the refusing. If you refuse salvation, eternal torture is the choice you make by default. He's giving you exactly what you asked for: I can't think of anything more compassionate. And now that I'm done scaring everyone, including myself... I wish you the best of luck. I only hope that my answers present a worst-case scenario that made you and , and got you thinking of counter-arguments.

01-27-2003, 08:13 PM	#6
atheist_in_foxhole Guest Posts: n/a	Ask him why god placed the earth in an orbit that guarantees that it will be struck by large, dangeorous asteroids from time to time. Did these asteroids exist before the Fall?

01-27-2003, 08:49 PM	#7
Amie Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: New York Posts: 1,626	If he tries to convert you just tell him you are 3rd in line for master celtic witch and you don't want to ruin your seniority No, In all seriousness Evil Milkman I think what you have there is just great. Have fun...

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.