Steven S

Sorry if someone has already posted this...
This Physics Web article
<a href="http://physicsweb.org/article/news/6/7/11" target="_blank">http://physicsweb.org/article/news/6/7/11</a>
describes small violations in the second law of thermodynamics over short periods of time. That is, entropy is consumed rather than generated in sufficiently small systems. I thought it was interesting for purely physical reasons but it is also of interest for those in the evolution & creationism debate. Perhaps after I've absorded the Phys. Rev. Let. paper I might write more on this.

Steven S

[ July 16, 2002: Message edited by: Steven S ]</p>

Dr.GH

What will Behe have to say?

tronvillain

Well, given that the second law is statistical rather than absolute it's hardly surprising.

tgamble

Does this mean the old argument "evolution violates the 2nd law" is not only wrong but irrelevent anyway?

monkenstick

the answer I always pull out when the old creationist 2LoT argument comes up is this: explain to me the massive increase in order from fertilised zygote to fully grown human being is achieved if life obeys creationist missapplication of the 2LoT

tgamble

I think they claim it's because the information and order is already programmed into the DNA so it doesn't matter.

I know the argument is wrong, I was just wondering if this new research made it irrelvent anyway. ie. violation of the laws of thermodynamics is possible.

Steven S

Yes, I thought it was certainly possible before hand but to see someone do an experiment on this is really neat. But I guess that's why I study physics for a living.

Starboy

This is a red herring. Life is not an equilibrium system, it requires an energy interface to exist and thrive. Show me an energy interface and I will show you life. IIRC some time ago there was a paper in the literature someplace showing that life decreases entropy locally.

Starboy

Steven S

Yes, it is well known that life is an example of a system where there exists a local decrease in entropy at the expense of its surroundings. However, that is not what this paper shows and I don't know why you call this a red herring.

Steven S

tronvillain

Steven S:
I imagine using small systems on small time scales makes it easier to see more significant violations. You'd have to wait forever to see all the air molecules in a room end up on one side, though such a violoation is possible.