Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Fr.Andrew · 12-20-2002, 04:29 PM

"...and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks:nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."--Isaiah 2:4

"Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near...Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears..."--Joel 3:10

ShottleBop · 12-20-2002, 04:46 PM

Jeremiah 8:8:

Quote:

How can you say, We are wise, and we have the written law of the Lord [and are learned in its language and teachings]? Behold, the truth is, the lying pen of the scribes has made of the law a falsehood (a mere code of ceremonial observances).

Jeremy Pallant · 12-20-2002, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vinnie:


Reading that made me dizzy....

Vinnie

That's a common reaction to Amos' posts, Vinnie.

12-20-2002, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ShottleBop:
Jeremiah 8:8:

That just means that laws are man made and sin is an illusion no matter how much they clash with our conscience.

NOGO · 12-20-2002, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Amos
The rest live an a world of illusion where they see only vague images of reality. For example, life is an illusion only because eternal life is real and we are mortal only because in eternal life we are immortal.

What is astonishing Amos is that you are now debating with people like me who live in illusion. You never did this before. What happened?

The only problem with your assertion is that you have absolutely no evidence.

For you the illusion of this world will end when you die and you will see the eternal truth.

For me the illusion of this world will end when you die and so will you. Same as with the rest of us.

AJ113 · 12-20-2002, 10:45 PM

Well, I've been away on business for two days but I'm delighted to see the response so far.

Regarding Amos:
It is quite clear to me that Amos is a person who is having fun by making spoof "Christian" posts. Any attempt to reply to him will clearly result in more lunacy, but it all makes for entertaining reading.

The question was asked: "Amos, are you for real?" Clearly he is not for real, but an alter ego of some sort, possibly even of someone who contributes to this forum?

My advice would be not to respond to Amos, but read his/her posts and have a good chuckle, as I am sure that this is Amos's intention.

If you can spare the time, keep the difficulties coming, and thank you for the contributions so far.

Adrian

12-21-2002, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by NOGO:

For you the illusion of this world will end when you die and you will see the eternal truth.

For me the illusion of this world will end when you die and so will you. Same as with the rest of us.

From my point of view (leave me out of it) the illusion of this world will end when the ego is crucified. After this we will enjoy eternal life until we physically die. Eternal life is when our soul knowledge (intuition is the memory if our soul) has become rational knowledge, and if, as in my perspective, our soul is incarnate to us from previous generations for up to one thousand years, it can be said that we live in the "Thousand Year Reign."

When we physically die this "reign" will end and we return to dust while nowbody owes us anything.

Added especially for Hawkinfan: When the ego raptures that which remains is in heaven. Question: ever seen anybody with no balls in heaven?

[ December 21, 2002: Message edited by: Amos ]

12-21-2002, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by AJ113:
Adrian

Thank God for Freud to invent a name for people like me.

Luiseach · 12-21-2002, 10:50 AM

My 'favourite' biblical difficulty?

I don't know if I actually have one!

No, wait, I do...it's contradictions make it rather difficult to believe in. :-D

Sojourner553 · 12-21-2002, 06:18 PM

It's hard for me to pick jsut one. Is it ok to list more than 1?

1) Belief in the existance of witches and demons; including the belief that demons are the cause of ALL mental illnesses (which by the way is what most of the neighbors of the hebrews also thought. There were a few Greeks who were exceptions, notably Hippocrates).

*In Galilee, one of Jesus' main occupation was said to be from casting out demons: "So all through Galilee he [Jesus] went...casting out the devils." (Mark 1:39, Matthew 4:23)

*According to Exodus, witches exist: "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live".

2.Biblical cosmology:

* The Sun travels around the earth.

Joshua ordered the sun and moon to stand still in order to give his hebrew troops more light to kill the inhabitants of Gibeon ("Sun, stand thou still at Gibeon; and thou, Moon in the valley of Ajalon. And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the [hebrew] nation took vengence on their enemies..."
(Joshua 10:12-3)

*the earth was created BEFORE the sun, moon, and other stars? (Day 1 for the Earth, vs Day 4 for the sun, moon, and stars per Genesis I.)

3. Human Sacrifice for Yahweh:

* In Judges 11:30-35, a Israelite judge named Jephthah, sacrificed his daughter as a burnt offering, to fulfill his promise to God for being victorious in battle.

4. Do ommissions count?

If the Bible is the source of moral laws, why are important moral and humane laws -- missing from the Bible. Most people today agree that
torture and slavery are immoral -- yet there are no prohibitions against these in the Bible. (Indeed slaveownders argued even the Golden rule did not outlaw slavery because if "they" (ie the masters) happened to be so dumb and helpless, they would "want" to have to be protected as someone's slave. Likewise Inquisitors reasoned that if they sinned against God they would "prefer" to be tortured now, rather than face the greater tortures of hell.)

I have more... Guess I should stop though.

Sojourner

PS: I usually steer clear of Amos, rather than waste my time with his nonsensical chatter (which is probably at least partially an act.)

<a href="http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/index.html" target="_blank">http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/index.html</a>

[ December 21, 2002: Message edited by: Sojourner553 ]

12-21-2002, 06:18 PM	#130
Sojourner553 Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Southern US Posts: 817	It's hard for me to pick jsut one. Is it ok to list more than 1? 1) Belief in the existance of witches and demons; including the belief that demons are the cause of ALL mental illnesses (which by the way is what most of the neighbors of the hebrews also thought. There were a few Greeks who were exceptions, notably Hippocrates). In Galilee, one of Jesus' main occupation was said to be from casting out demons: "So all through Galilee he [Jesus] went...casting out the devils." (Mark 1:39, Matthew 4:23) According to Exodus, witches exist: "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live". 2.Biblical cosmology: * The Sun travels around the earth. Joshua ordered the sun and moon to stand still in order to give his hebrew troops more light to kill the inhabitants of Gibeon ("Sun, stand thou still at Gibeon; and thou, Moon in the valley of Ajalon. And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the [hebrew] nation took vengence on their enemies..." (Joshua 10:12-3) the earth was created BEFORE the sun, moon, and other stars? (Day 1 for the Earth, vs Day 4 for the sun, moon, and stars per Genesis I.) 3. Human Sacrifice for Yahweh: In Judges 11:30-35, a Israelite judge named Jephthah, sacrificed his daughter as a burnt offering, to fulfill his promise to God for being victorious in battle. 4. Do ommissions count? If the Bible is the source of moral laws, why are important moral and humane laws -- missing from the Bible. Most people today agree that torture and slavery are immoral -- yet there are no prohibitions against these in the Bible. (Indeed slaveownders argued even the Golden rule did not outlaw slavery because if "they" (ie the masters) happened to be so dumb and helpless, they would "want" to have to be protected as someone's slave. Likewise Inquisitors reasoned that if they sinned against God they would "prefer" to be tortured now, rather than face the greater tortures of hell.) I have more... Guess I should stop though. Sojourner PS: I usually steer clear of Amos, rather than waste my time with his nonsensical chatter (which is probably at least partially an act.) <a href="http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/index.html" target="_blank">http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/index.html</a> [ December 21, 2002: Message edited by: Sojourner553 ]</p>

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12-20-2002, 04:29 PM	#121
Fr.Andrew Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Betsy's Bluff, Maine Posts: 540	"...and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks:nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."--Isaiah 2:4 "Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near...Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears..."--Joel 3:10

12-20-2002, 10:45 PM	#126
AJ113 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Hull UK Posts: 854	Well, I've been away on business for two days but I'm delighted to see the response so far. Regarding Amos: It is quite clear to me that Amos is a person who is having fun by making spoof "Christian" posts. Any attempt to reply to him will clearly result in more lunacy, but it all makes for entertaining reading. The question was asked: "Amos, are you for real?" Clearly he is not for real, but an alter ego of some sort, possibly even of someone who contributes to this forum? My advice would be not to respond to Amos, but read his/her posts and have a good chuckle, as I am sure that this is Amos's intention. If you can spare the time, keep the difficulties coming, and thank you for the contributions so far. Adrian

12-21-2002, 10:50 AM	#129
Luiseach Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: limbo Posts: 986	My 'favourite' biblical difficulty? I don't know if I actually have one! No, wait, I do...it's contradictions make it rather difficult to believe in. :-D

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