cjr1851

Well said my friend.

Bookman

No, it wouldn't and no it isn't. Elsewhere you asked:
Setting aside the unusual punctuation, I'll name three very basic ones: food, music, and language.

Anticipating a couple of spurious objections:

No, food isn't all about religious practices or preparing kosher food. Some of it is just plain unique ethnic tradition, and damn tasty too.

Sure, the folk music (like klezmer) is really eastern european and not strictly Jewish in origin, but is culturally associated with Jews.

Why is it so hard for people to admit they're wrong and move on? Oy!

Bookman

DMB

Originally posted by Orpheous99:
I don't get why you are being so dogmatic about this. If you had started the thread and imposed your definition of "Jew" from the start, it would be more understandable. But it is clear that many other people see no inconsistency between atheism and Jewishness.

I would point out that the Nazis didn't bother with niceties about whether Jews were the offspring of Jewish mothers or converts to judaeism. They (somewhat erroneously) saw them as a racial group and tried to wipe them out.

I don't mention this to get cheap sympathy for Jews, but simply to point out that other views of Jewishness have long been current.

Although there are obvious connections between religion and culture, it is impossible for any of us to detach ourselves entirely from the culture we grew up in, even if we consciously try to reject it. That is why you get catholic atheists, anglican atheists, baptist atheists, jewish atheists, muslim atheists, etc.

Megatron

Hey... wait a minute... does that make me a fundy atheist?

Howard

In our family food, not religious ritual, was the focal point of Judaism. Most holidays were kicked off by my father saying: "They tried to kill us. We survived. Let's eat."

Mountainbike Racer

If judaism was not based on belief, and it was bloodline, wouldn't they then be, by definition, a racist organization? And what would the distinction between them and the KKK?

I think at best this is a PR campaign by Israel. I don't think they could afford to side with the orthadox because of the perception it would create about racism. I believe that a lot jewish people still make a distinction based on bloodline and even believe that their "God" does the same.

Gurdur

Bullshit. It's already been noted that you can convert to Judaism (whether Conservative, Reform, Liberal, Orthodox or whatever).

Several other nationalities / ethnic groups recognise ethnicity in terms of "bloodline".
The USA recognises a child born of American parents as being American.

What a trollish question. The KKK are founded on hatred towards other ethnic groups, and on notions of racial superiority.
To be a Jew doesn't mean you need to hate anyone, or even to be religious, or to look down on anyone else.

Yeah, yeah, those conspiricies, yes ? You have evidence for your claim?
How about the much more obvious and likely cause being the protests by secular, Reform and Conservative Israeli Jews?

Bah, how about those Americans?

crazyfingers

WOW, this topic has taken on a 2nd life.

There are a lot of people who consider themselves to be secular Jews. I have several friends who are like this. They come from the Jewish cultural tradition and enjoy these traditions. So to them to be Jewish can be to believe in the Jewish religion or to follow the Jewish cultural tradition or both.

For these friends, they consider themselves to be Jews because they follow the jewish cultural traditions but they do not believe in a god.

Perhaps there are secular jews and religious jews and perhaps they have different definitions but secular jews will call themselves jews and it's hard for me to say that anyone should claim that they aren't.

Mountainbike Racer

Gurdur?
I didn't ask those questions with my mind made up, they were sincere questions. I have often wondered how jewish people could be the "chosen" people and value their bloodline and not be considered racist. So I guess the answer is that they have softened and it is now faith that defines your judaism.

I didn't say anything about conspiracies, the movement you spoke of is much like politics. There are hardlined hasidic jews, and I am sure they believe bloodline is important, all the way to the moderate ones.

This was my first post here, thanks for the welcome Gurdur, I really appreciate your extra effort to not only answer my question, but to do your best to try to insult me in the process.

Gurdur

You'll have to pardon me then; I find a comparison with the KKK - an organization noted for its anti-semitism and advocation of acts of racial violence - so obnoxious and inappropriate as to be almost evidence of trolling.

So ? Look through history and you'll find countless examples of ethnic groups who have additionally legitimized their ethnicity - whether wrongly or not - through additional "spiritual" claims.

Americans, Canadians, British and Australians have all, for example, claimed at some time or another that God was on their own side.

The Jews are no exception to the general rule; the fact that Israel allows entry to all Jews per se does not mean you must be Jewish to be an Israeli citizen; there are Israeli Arabs serving in the Israeli army, for example.

Moreover, the right of immigration for Jews is founded on the facts of pernicious and persistent persecution.

Wrong on 2 counts.
A) - 1) Being a Jew can be a matter of faith
--- 2) or a matter of cultural ethnicity,
--- 3)or both

B) I myself am not Jewish in any way at all.
I'm an Australian of Scandanavian and Celtic descent, if you go back far enough.

Do you realize the Hasidim are a tiny minority overall?

Gosh, first off you compare Jews with the KKK, now you complain I'm being rude to you.

Your very first post, wasted on such offensive comparisons?

In case you didn't notice, we have a Welcome forum here.

[ February 22, 2002: Message edited by: Gurdur ]</p>