Freethought & Rationalism Archive

j ford · 02-07-2003, 09:59 PM

This really is just a loose kind of discussion that some friends of mine have had over the last handful of years. Some nights we have delved very deeply into the possibilities of this topic, and honestly it would be very hard for me to explain the full views that we've gone into. I'm not neccesarily a believer of this, I just think that it is interesting to entertain. I'll try and explain the best I can...

Basically to start, this follows an idea that there is an energy that everything is attached to, not a god, but energy is about the easiest way to explain it. Now if you take where we are at, which is a point that most think we are evolving from the past and trace it back (with this energy in mind), then you would eventually come to nothing but simple complete energy.

So with that in mind, what do some people seem to think that evolution is going towards.... perfection? Perfection maybe, obviously there isn't much perfection now, but some say that is why things are always changing and adapting, they are trying to become perfect. Now if you take a pure, whole energy, with nothing else but this energy in existence (for lack of a better word), wouldn't it be perfect in it's oneness. There would be nothing to compare it to, other than itself, therefore being perfect. Remember, I'm talking about ablsolutely nothing to compare it to. So if by evolution moving towards perfection was in play, than this perfect energy would be the epitomy of evolved.

Now if you follow me, let's say somehow there was a parting of the energy, and it's now become halved, then it is no longer complete. Once it becomes halved, then it splits again, and again, each part changing and becoming different than the others. If you keep in mind what was explained as evolved and perfect earlier, then there is no perfection, and each splitting has moved farther from it's evolved state.

Now if you jump ahead, I don't think I need to breakdown every little piece, and we come to modern day, where are we at. From what we are taught, and what it seems like, we are moving ahead in life. Really though, which way are we moving? If you consider differences in life as barriers, wouldn't it seem that we are moving farther from perfection. I'll use sight first.

Most people think that with the gift of sight, we see more. Do we really though, through sight do we not limit everything we see to be only that which is perceived. You see a tree as a tree, and not as a divided piece of the energy that was perfection. Same goes with speech.

Speech is seen as a way of communication, but can also be an obvious barrier. Many times, what you're trying to communicate through speech can't be, because it's a feeling. Many people carry on conversations to feel validated as being accepted, can this be the inherent desire to be reunited with a divided piece of the energy. Many people ask questions that they know the answers to, for the same reasons. Now, if the barrier of speech was eliminated, and everyone knew collectively the same thing, would that energy have not gotten closer to uniting, thus closer to it's perfection.

Hopefully, I'm beginning to make some sense of where I'm going. If you follow, than it can be perceived where things that we believe as being an advantage, are really a disadvantage, or more a way to keep from joining with each other. I only used two examples of what could be barriers, but I think you all can get the idea that I'm putting forward.

So, if these barriers were let go of, then wouldn't the energy be getting closer to itself again, therefor evolving into perfection?

Now really, this is just something that I thought would be fun discussion, and I could here some different views on it. the gist of what I wrote is basically the breakdown of what myself and some friends have babbled on about over the years. It really has gone much more detailed, but that would take me forever to write. I'm just curious what anyone would add to, or argue away from this topic.

Azathoth · 02-07-2003, 11:33 PM

Well,I don't plan on arguing this topic,but I should point out a problem with your line of thought.

Evolution really isn't directed toward anything.It's simply the process by which an organism responds to change.So,humanity is really no more "evolved" than the next animal.

j ford · 02-08-2003, 02:30 AM

Well, it's not just humanity that this theory was based around. It's everything. Really, it's not something that I'm deeply rooted in, it just seemed like a fun avenue to try and discuss, plus if you try and play it out, it can get deep and lengthy.

Doubting Didymus · 02-08-2003, 02:40 AM

Vienna · 02-08-2003, 04:24 AM

Well, I guess it could be fun to play this idea out, but in the end, it really would just be a hypothetical because, as Azathoth mentioned, evolution isn't heading towards perfection at all. It just makes organisms more suited to their current environment, and since the environment is constantly changing, so are the directions of evolution.

I'm not quite sure I understand the sight and speech thing. How is it that having sight means you see less?

But, perhaps, this isn't the kind of thing to talk about using physical facts. It sounds more philosophical to me. So, maybe I'll just close my trap now...

j ford · 02-08-2003, 06:48 AM

Well, basically the thought behind the sight and speech stuff goes kind of like this.

They say that people that are blind are more hypersensitive to other things. So if it falls in line with the seperated strands of energy, trying to get back together to become whole again, then not having sight in the way, would bring the energy closer together. It's like eliminating space between many strands of the energy, and pulling them together. Does that make a little more sense on where I was going with that?

It's not just sight and speech/sound, that was just two basic examples of how they could be barriers or ways of seperating the energy more, that is trying to be complete.

Jobar · 02-08-2003, 08:35 AM

Hi jf. This forum is pretty much exclusively dedicated to the evolution of *life*, and how the theory describing that evolution (which Darwin described in his Evolution of Species) is a better paradigm for understanding life's diversity than the creation story in the Bible.

What you are talking about is more the beginning and evolution of the *universe*. (I think.) So, you would probably do better in one of the other forums- Science and Skepticism, maybe, or even Philosophy.

I won't move your topic, because I'm not sure if you want to talk about living things, or the universe in general.

You might try reading some of my discussions of pantheism- I'm not sure that is what you are trying to describe, but it might be.

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...threadid=33316
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...threadid=33304
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...threadid=33228
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...threadid=33356
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...threadid=33359

Daggah · 02-08-2003, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Basically to start, this follows an idea that there is an energy that everything is attached to, not a god, but energy is about the easiest way to explain it.

Such an idea is ridiculous.

j ford · 02-08-2003, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Daggah
Such an idea is ridiculous.

Wow! That's comforting, thank you for emptying all of your wisdom onto me. I don't feel like anything that I had stated, simply for conversation purpose, deserves that type of reply.

Could you maybe explain why you think my idea is "Ridiculous", or are you just making a statement to try and belittle me? I'm not staunch set on this idea, it was simply a question that I've followed a train of thought on.

Please elaborate on how ridiculous my mind works.

Monkey · 02-08-2003, 10:01 AM

This has nothing to do with evolution, creation or science. Perhaps it should be moved to the philosophy forum?

02-07-2003, 09:59 PM	#1
j ford Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Atlanta, Ga Posts: 19	could we be unevolving.... This really is just a loose kind of discussion that some friends of mine have had over the last handful of years. Some nights we have delved very deeply into the possibilities of this topic, and honestly it would be very hard for me to explain the full views that we've gone into. I'm not neccesarily a believer of this, I just think that it is interesting to entertain. I'll try and explain the best I can... Basically to start, this follows an idea that there is an energy that everything is attached to, not a god, but energy is about the easiest way to explain it. Now if you take where we are at, which is a point that most think we are evolving from the past and trace it back (with this energy in mind), then you would eventually come to nothing but simple complete energy. So with that in mind, what do some people seem to think that evolution is going towards.... perfection? Perfection maybe, obviously there isn't much perfection now, but some say that is why things are always changing and adapting, they are trying to become perfect. Now if you take a pure, whole energy, with nothing else but this energy in existence (for lack of a better word), wouldn't it be perfect in it's oneness. There would be nothing to compare it to, other than itself, therefore being perfect. Remember, I'm talking about ablsolutely nothing to compare it to. So if by evolution moving towards perfection was in play, than this perfect energy would be the epitomy of evolved. Now if you follow me, let's say somehow there was a parting of the energy, and it's now become halved, then it is no longer complete. Once it becomes halved, then it splits again, and again, each part changing and becoming different than the others. If you keep in mind what was explained as evolved and perfect earlier, then there is no perfection, and each splitting has moved farther from it's evolved state. Now if you jump ahead, I don't think I need to breakdown every little piece, and we come to modern day, where are we at. From what we are taught, and what it seems like, we are moving ahead in life. Really though, which way are we moving? If you consider differences in life as barriers, wouldn't it seem that we are moving farther from perfection. I'll use sight first. Most people think that with the gift of sight, we see more. Do we really though, through sight do we not limit everything we see to be only that which is perceived. You see a tree as a tree, and not as a divided piece of the energy that was perfection. Same goes with speech. Speech is seen as a way of communication, but can also be an obvious barrier. Many times, what you're trying to communicate through speech can't be, because it's a feeling. Many people carry on conversations to feel validated as being accepted, can this be the inherent desire to be reunited with a divided piece of the energy. Many people ask questions that they know the answers to, for the same reasons. Now, if the barrier of speech was eliminated, and everyone knew collectively the same thing, would that energy have not gotten closer to uniting, thus closer to it's perfection. Hopefully, I'm beginning to make some sense of where I'm going. If you follow, than it can be perceived where things that we believe as being an advantage, are really a disadvantage, or more a way to keep from joining with each other. I only used two examples of what could be barriers, but I think you all can get the idea that I'm putting forward. So, if these barriers were let go of, then wouldn't the energy be getting closer to itself again, therefor evolving into perfection? Now really, this is just something that I thought would be fun discussion, and I could here some different views on it. the gist of what I wrote is basically the breakdown of what myself and some friends have babbled on about over the years. It really has gone much more detailed, but that would take me forever to write. I'm just curious what anyone would add to, or argue away from this topic.

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02-07-2003, 11:33 PM	#2
Azathoth Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: The centre of infinity Posts: 1,181	Well,I don't plan on arguing this topic,but I should point out a problem with your line of thought. Evolution really isn't directed toward anything.It's simply the process by which an organism responds to change.So,humanity is really no more "evolved" than the next animal.

02-08-2003, 02:30 AM	#3
j ford Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Atlanta, Ga Posts: 19	Well, it's not just humanity that this theory was based around. It's everything. Really, it's not something that I'm deeply rooted in, it just seemed like a fun avenue to try and discuss, plus if you try and play it out, it can get deep and lengthy.

02-08-2003, 02:40 AM	#4
Doubting Didymus Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: East Coast. Australia. Posts: 5,455

02-08-2003, 04:24 AM	#5
Vienna Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 157	Well, I guess it could be fun to play this idea out, but in the end, it really would just be a hypothetical because, as Azathoth mentioned, evolution isn't heading towards perfection at all. It just makes organisms more suited to their current environment, and since the environment is constantly changing, so are the directions of evolution. I'm not quite sure I understand the sight and speech thing. How is it that having sight means you see less? But, perhaps, this isn't the kind of thing to talk about using physical facts. It sounds more philosophical to me. So, maybe I'll just close my trap now...

02-08-2003, 06:48 AM	#6
j ford Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Atlanta, Ga Posts: 19	Well, basically the thought behind the sight and speech stuff goes kind of like this. They say that people that are blind are more hypersensitive to other things. So if it falls in line with the seperated strands of energy, trying to get back together to become whole again, then not having sight in the way, would bring the energy closer together. It's like eliminating space between many strands of the energy, and pulling them together. Does that make a little more sense on where I was going with that? It's not just sight and speech/sound, that was just two basic examples of how they could be barriers or ways of seperating the energy more, that is trying to be complete.

02-08-2003, 08:35 AM	#7
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	Hi jf. This forum is pretty much exclusively dedicated to the evolution of life, and how the theory describing that evolution (which Darwin described in his Evolution of Species) is a better paradigm for understanding life's diversity than the creation story in the Bible. What you are talking about is more the beginning and evolution of the universe. (I think.) So, you would probably do better in one of the other forums- Science and Skepticism, maybe, or even Philosophy. I won't move your topic, because I'm not sure if you want to talk about living things, or the universe in general. You might try reading some of my discussions of pantheism- I'm not sure that is what you are trying to describe, but it might be. http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...threadid=33316 http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...threadid=33304 http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...threadid=33228 http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...threadid=33356 http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...threadid=33359

02-08-2003, 10:01 AM	#10
Monkey Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 93	This has nothing to do with evolution, creation or science. Perhaps it should be moved to the philosophy forum?

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