Amos

Christians are redeemed. Redemption means to re-deem our prior nature. Our first nature as man is good and our second nature as human is evil, or at least, is the nature wherein we know good and evil.

To be redeemed is to have a new identity even before the old identity is annihilated. Without an identity wherein sin is know it is impossible to sin or be counted as sinner.

I should add that forgiveness and redemption are not the same and are actually opposite to each other. To be forgiven is to be pardonned without liberation and to be redeemed is to be liberated and this renders forgiveness impossible.

[ November 06, 2002: Message edited by: Amos ]</p>

HRG

Please tell us who gave your God the authority to pass laws for sentient and self-aware beings, without their consent.
IOW the standards are capricious. Blaming or condemning someone for not being able to meet them is like blaming them for not being able to breathe vacuum.

The Romans had a legal maxim: Nemo ultra posse tenetur (no one is obliged to do what he cannot do).
So please tell us: why did he set up those standards in the first place ?

&lt;rest snipped&gt;

Regards,
HRG.

Pookmaster

Either way, regardless of the fancy terminology, the problem with Christianity remains the same: the bargaining aspect. Nobody yet has made a convincing argument to the contrary.
By the way, clinging to a deity is not "liberation" in any meaningful sense of the word.

Amos

There is no bargaining with God when we confess to a priest. God is never part of the picture until we become God.

As long as you "think Christianity" you will not get a convincing argument because you accept the wrong conclusion as you major premise.

Fiach

Being "Born Again" is a license to sin, to hate, to abuse, and to be an all around evil wanker.

We poor Atheists have to be good because we have consciences and guilt. We must live our lives with the memory and guilt of anything bad we do. That is a major incentive to be good.

Christians can say, "Shite, I'll rape and steal all I want because I am saved."

Fiach

B. H. Manners

QOUTE---"To the Christian, Gods law isn't bad or good. It just is. It is something that has been set up since the beginning, and it is not up for debate."

That is exactly the weakness of that view. With the attitude you have you can never know in an objective absolute empirical manner if a Satan, Iblis, jinn, or cult leader has not deceived you in the name of some god.

[ November 17, 2002: Message edited by: BH ]</p>

Pookmaster

I wasn't referring to confession. I'm talking about the general lifestyle - or moreover, the mindset, of the average Christian. Your attitude is one of "I am one of the privileged ones because I have chosen the right path to begin with". According to you, all Christians are automatically "redeemed".
I'm sorry, but I have a problem with this notion. It makes several assumptions - about the existence of a deity, the existence of a "right path" and the denial of the possibilities of alternative paths as "right" or even "acceptable".

Amos

According to my notion to be redeemed means to be free from sin and the conviction of sin and I have never met a [self proclaimed] Christian who is free from sin. Have you? So maybe you misunderstood my post.

Broken

rofl

Not a very clear understanding, apparently.

Pookmaster

So "to be redeemed means to be free from sin" and no Christian is "free from sin", right?

However, in an earlier post, you state: "Christians are redeemed. Redemption means to re-deem our prior nature. Our first nature as man is good and our second nature as human is evil, or at least, is the nature wherein we know good and evil... to be redeemed is to have a new identity even before the old identity is annihilated. Without an identity wherein sin is know it is impossible to sin or be counted as sinner."

In other words, Christians are redeemed automatically, are they not?

Better make up your mind, Amos...