Pookmaster

Greetings all!
I'm new here. I've been quietly observing this forum for some time now, and it's heart-warming to see a lot of intelligent fellow atheists here!
Anyway, I just thought I'd mention something that bugs me about Christianity (besides the whole faith in god thing)... this is probably what gets me about Christians more than anything else. Christians believe in redemption. That basically means that your sins will be forever forgiven if you bargain with a higher power. Does this make any sense at all? I could spend a greater part of my life committing "sins" - and turn to Christ and follow the "true path to god" - and everything will be pretty much OK? I think this is the basis of what makes a lot of Christians so self-righteous: they actually believe that their own sins will be forgiven, simply because they have made some kind of "deal" with "god".
Any thoughts?...

Broken

My personal opinion follows...:

People have a hard time believing that someone like Hitler, whose atrocities are obviously very well known, could gain redemption on his death bed, and be allowed into heaven. How fair is that?

Well, there are some factors that you have to bear in mind. God sees your heart. He doesn't hear what you speak verbally, and take it at face value. He knows if you mean what you say. God is completely just. Just like anyone else, he does not want to see someone who breaks his law get off scott free. We have all broken the law of God, and we are all headed in one direction.

He knew we wouldn't be able to live up to his standards. No one can. He knows this. That is why he sent Jesus to pay the price of sin.

Death. That is the justice. Everyone who sins goes to hell. There HAS to be payment made. Jesus was perfect. Sinless. Just like the slaughter of flawless, innocent lambs were the method of appeasing God's wrath for the breaking of his law, Jesus acted as the perfect flawless lamb.

"My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?" God seperated himself from his son, because Jesus was then with sin. God poured his wrath upon his own son.

Price = paid.

Now, back to the subject.

In the case of Hitler, if he were to approach God, and truly be sorry and repentant, and if he were to truly, in his heart, accept the truth, and let the light of that truth illuminate where he broke the law, and turn away in his heart... yes, he is in heaven. God doesn't want to see the guilty go unpunished. But he doesn't want to see all of his beloved creation end up separated from him forever. By beliving in Jesus, the punishment has already been served.

"I am the way, the truth and the light. No one comes to the father, except by me."

Thus ends the "my personal opinion" session.

Biff the unclean

We have all broken the law of God, and we are all headed in one direction.(Hell)

I can't get over the fact that although they claim to follow a "god of love" Xians really hate people. They just hate them. Everybody deserves to be put in the pit of Hell to burn forever??!!! Everybody? Even Hitler wasn't that nasty, even he liked a few people.
They should change the name of their religion from Christianity to Misanthropy.

Broken

Well, I don't know about the xians you have met, but I don't, by any means, hate people. Nor do the xians that I associate with.

My God is a god of love(Jesus; Grace), but he is also a God of ultimate justice(Law; Hell).

Like anyone who values the law, God does not want to see the guilty go free. We are all guilty. God has a law that we will never be able to follow, and he knows this. The love comes into play at the point where He gave us a way out.

A free way out.

Some people think that to be a christian is to be part of a herd. Once you become a christian, you are no longer of your own mind, but that of the mindless.

Not true.

People think that you have to change your life, against your own wishes. An open heart that has accepted Jesus will tell you different. You are not made to live by 'the rules' against your will. That is why you are 'born again'. These changes happen willingly, and completely under your control.

This is why we see priests raping alter boys, and the history of the inquisition, et al. Those were people, acting out of their free will. Despite popular belief, these things do not reflect upon God. God does not condone things such as that.

Thank you for the reply. I hope that I may have shed a little light on your feelings.... if you believe me anyway.

Heathen Dawn

In my book I used to think the murderer got punished and the one who fed the hungry got rewarded. But Christianity turns works into naught and in its stead puts a single criterion for entry to heaven or hell: belief in Jesus. Thus can the murderer be admitted to heaven because of his belief, and the feeder of the hungry can well roast in hell for eternity just for failing to believe - just for a thoughtcrime.

Christianity isn't anything about justice. It's all about a dictator's system of mind-control. Very much like 1984.

Biff the unclean

Well, I don't know about the xians you have met, but I don't, by any means, hate people. Nor do the xians that I associate with.
… God does not want to see the guilty go free. We are all guilty.

No Broken, you are exactly the type of misanthropic Xian I am talking about. This is the HATE and the hypocrisy that drove me from Christianity to begin with. We are not all guilty. Most people in this world, the over whelming majority of them, are very nice.
Nobody deserves infinite punishment, not Hitler not anyone. No matter what you do in your seventy odd years of life eventually you will have suffered enough. To make someone suffer infinite punishment for finite offenses is sadistic.
To threaten people with your God, like you do, is disgusting. It is no different from putting a gun to their head and saying "your money or your life."
Thank you for the reply. I hope that I may have shed a little light on your feelings.... if you believe me anyway
You have shown me that you have deluded yourself. Your attitude that all of mankind is "guilty" is something that you should be ashamed of. Not something to boast about.

Xixax

I think hate is a strong word. I think it's more that most christians haven't taken the time to examine the implications of their system of belief. If you believe in eternal punishment for any crime, that is purely sadistic. Especially when this punishment isn't usually described as something as harmless as a prison sentence or bad cafeteria food, but causing "weeping and gnashing of teeth" because of fire.

I mean, think about it for a moment; If someone killed someone you love dearly in front of you, even torturing and mutilating them in front of you, how long would you be able to hold a torch to them?

What purpose would it serve you to punish someone in such a way? Wouldn't the ability to blot out their existence entirely be enough? Why does justice require pain of such magnitude?

Isn't this entire story really the avoidance of justice? The innocent son is sacrificed to avoid punishing the guilty people?

Think of it in a court room, would you consider it justice to walk into a trial, offer your child as a human sacrifice to help a murderer go free?

Justice isn't served in that way at all. Also, why is there a price to be paid for unbelief in the first place? If someone doesn't believe, yet behaves as morally perfect as another who does believe, who decided that lack of belief demands a price? If God decided that it demanded a price, how ridiculous is it then to have him sacrifice his son to pay himself? Why not just release the debt in the first place?

Mageth

My God is a god of love(Jesus; Grace), but he is also a God of ultimate justice(Law; Hell).

Like anyone who values the law, God does not want to see the guilty go free.

You seem to be describing a god who is constrained by some justice/law system that is higher than himself. Where did that come from?

If it's not higher than himself, why did he make things this way?

Well, I don't know about the xians you have met, but I don't, by any means, hate people. Nor do the xians that I associate with

I am an atheist in a large family of believers, and married to one as well. I have chosen to "hide" my atheism from at least some of my family members because I know it will cause them great grief (and me as well, because I would become an immediate "problem" rather than a normal participating family member). You see, my own brothers, sisters, parents and even wife think atheists like myself, even their loved ones, are condemned to eternal suffering in hell. Note that this condemnation is based not on what evil acts I may do, but on what I believe or don't believe. My family by no means hates me, but my atheism (rather, their beliefs) definitely precludes us from having what I would consider a healthy, open, loving relationship. Where is the justice in that?

Biff the unclean

An interesting thought.
If God is sending people to Hell because they are no better than people can be, and Jesus is keeping people from going there...
then Jesus is saving us FROM God.

Broken

When it comes down to it, it is all a matter of belief. That is why arguments like this will never be won by either side.

To the Christian, Gods law isn't bad or good. It just is. It is something that has been set up since the beginning, and it is not up for debate.

A non-christian understandably feels that this is not fair. Eternal punishment of the worst kind (separation from God is really what that punishment is) for 70 years worth of time, and worse yet, just for not believeing?...

Understandable. I have always found the prospect of 'witnessing' a difficult one, because I am aware of this. I can see why it would be looked at in this way completely. That is why I don't witness. The extent of my witnessing is not much differnt than what I do here. I just express my opinion, and you can take it or leave it.

But to say that the way I look at this situation as being hateful is incorrect. Quite the opposite actually. We are taught to love everyone, and through that love, have a concern for each individual's 'eternal fate'. Unfortunately, this is taken as bigotry and, well, hate.

It is a matter of belief, when it comes down to it. I respect the opinions of others, and try to understand them, but responses like this exhibit a lack of understanding, or a willingness to be understanding, of the opposite point of view.

I hardly think I was boasting. I would like to know how you got that. As far as delusional... well, that could be said about anyone who has a specific belief in anything.

Thanks for the reply.