Duck!

I have a question for the theists amongst us:

I've asked it before but I don't remember get anything close to a satisfactory answer.

A common defense for the existence of evil is that it's a price we pay for free will, that humans exercising free will and commiting evil as a result is better than automatons living in a evilless world.

Fair enough. I'll agree with that for now.

But what about heaven? Is there free will in heaven? If there is then why isn't there evil in heaven? If there's no free will in heaven then it free will can't be that great can it?

You may say "Ah, but heaven is a perfect place and no-one in heaven would want to do anything bad or nasty!".

Which implies that free will can exist without evil. So why not just have a place like heaven with free will and no evil. Why does this world exist at all with free will and evil?

To get to the point, here's my question for theists : Does free will exist in heaven or not?

Just curious.


Duck!

rainbow walking

Revelation 12:7  And there was war in heaven:

What do you think?

Duck!

I think that it was me who asked the question. Your bible quote doesn't make the problem any simpler or more obvious.

You're just confusing the situation by claiming that heaven isn't all that it's cracked up to be. So the bible says that WAR can exist in heaven. So what's so great about heaven if it can exist in a state of war? I thought heaven was some sort of peaceful paradise. Obviously not.


Duck!

rainbow walking

rw: Chuckle...a real shocker...eh? So if there is conflict in heaven that must mean there are some very strong willed opposing forces at work. I guess that kinda means there is some room for manuevering one's own will.

I'm not convinced removing evil as an option from our choices would render us automatons. I'm more inclined to think it would render us something equivalent to milqtoast limber wristed pansies that would stagnate and die of boredom. I guess it would depend alot on what fell under the label of evil.

For instance if we labeled all death as evil God would have to fix it so's we live forever to protect us from this particular evil. Remove death and you've effectively removed about 99% of the challenges of life.

Duck!

I have to say RW that I don't know what point you're making. Maybe I should come at the problem from a different angle.....

Is Heaven a better place than Earth?

Yes, no?

Surely theists must think YES. If so, why? All the souls in heaven have the same free will as us poor feckers on earth. Why don't they exercise their free will and make heaven as bad as this world is? Why aren't people in heaven killing each other, lying, coveting each other's goods, and doing all the nasty stuff that free will leads to on earth?

If free will exists in heaven then surely these are the kind of negative repurcussions that should exist. If not, then why free will?

If these kind of horrible things are not the result of free will then why do they exist?

I have to say that I'm none the wiser after reading your post RW.


Duck!

rainbow walking

Duck:I have to say RW that I don't know what point you're making. Maybe I should come at the problem from a different angle.....

Is Heaven a better place than Earth?

Yes, no?

Rw:” And now”, as Paul Harvey use to say, “the rest of the story.”

Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

rw: The war in heaven has been resolved by moving it to earth. The conflict is being conducted here. Heaven is now restored to a place of righteousness. Feel better?


Duck: Surely theists must think YES. If so, why? All the souls in heaven have the same free will as us poor feckers on earth. Why don't they exercise their free will and make heaven as bad as this world is?

Rw: Why should they? What do you imagine folks do in such a spiritual realm? Is it a place where everyone gathers around the throne and sings hymns for eternity? In light of the recent illumination that there was actually a war in heaven does this not indicate it might just be a higher plane of existence with its own set of challenges and responsibilities? The subjugation of one’s will is the ultimate and ongoing test here on earth. And the liberation of one’s will is the temptation fostered by the enemy who lost the war in heaven.

Duck: Why aren't people in heaven killing each other, lying, coveting each other's goods, and doing all the nasty stuff that free will leads to on earth?

Rw: In as much as the precondition of admission into heaven is righteousness obtained by Christ and maintained in a partnership with the Holy Spirit, anyone who makes it that far probably has a pretty firm grip on their lusts.

Duck: If free will exists in heaven then surely these are the kind of negative repurcussions that should exist. If not, then why free will?

Rw: Because a tempered will is a necessary attribute of the new creatures that populate heaven.

Duck: If these kind of horrible things are not the result of free will then why do they exist?

Rw: Man was lured away to follow after the expression of his lusts having been initially taught such by fallen angels and having this body of knowledge passed on from generation to generation thereafter. This is the SIN we are born into. A world drenched in it like a contagious viral infection that none can escape. Where did you LEARN to tell a lie? Who taught you to steal your neighbors food when he wasn’t looking? How did you manage to get your competition fired so that you could take that coveted position? Where did you learn to respond with anger at that which displeases you? How do men bring themselves to believe they can be with God by killing innocent people?

The war was moved to earth and the conflict continues. None will escape the battle and none can defect. Man’s will, the capacity to make decisions, is only one side of the coin. The other side is the knowledge of what choices are available. That is the realm of morality. Right and wrong are just ideas. People are wise to do evil but to do good they have no knowledge. There is something even more fundamental to a man than his will and that is his identity. Who a man fancies himself to be is what will guide and motivate his will. Men were made in the image of God but being made in His likeness is a life long process. It’s one thing to look the part it’s quite another to actually fulfill it.

Duck: I have to say that I'm none the wiser after reading your post RW.

Rw: Me either.

Duck!

Rainbow Walking, thanks for your response. I find it totally obscure, but nonetheless.....

Perhaps I should simplify the problem by asking a very simple question to theists:

Do you agree that evil is the result of free will?

Yes or no.


Duck!

Duck!

No, I just don't get it. The above quote doesn't even come close to answering my question.... Does free will exist in heaven? YES OR NO?

I'm trying to get at the root of the issue. These "preconditions" you speak of. Why do they exist? Why doesn't heaven exist and nothing else? Why is it necessary for anyone to prove themselves? Why does some sort of test exist to get into heaven? I simply don't understand why there's nothing but heaven. I don't understand why this world exists at all!

Think about it this way. Just heaven, no hell. No earth. Just paradise that people are born directly into. Wouldn't thay be fucking great? No tests, no proof, nothing. Everyone is simply born into paradise and everyone's happy ever after. Can you imagine a more perfect, happy existence than that?

Excuse the ignorance, but why is a tempered will a necessary attribute of the new creatures that populate heaven? Simply because God says so? Because the Bible says so? I don't get it at all.

RW, you say that mankind was lured to follow after the etc. etc.............

What lured mankind away. Is mankind naturally weak and prone to being lured away? Is mankind naturally strong but stronger forces can lure us away? You mention mankind's lust. Why does mankind possess such a negative emotion as lust? Is lust a natural state of mankind? If yes, then God included lust as part of behaviour, in which case it's hard to blame mankind for behaviours that God included in us. If not, then why do we feel lust?

It's just that to me there's no consistency in Xtianity. It requires such mental gymnastics to reconcile the real world with Xtianity that I cannot possibly accept the truth of it. It takes an incredible level of self-deception to accept Xtianity that I couldn't possibly accept it. Not unless you shot me full of heroin could I defend Christianity.


Duck!


Duck!

bd-from-kg

Sigh. Looked like this had a good chance of being an interesting thread. But sadly, RW seems determined to keep it from happening. Bye.

rainbow walking

Duck: No, I just don't get it. The above quote doesn't even come close to answering my question.... Does free will exist in heaven? YES OR NO?

Rw: Yes.

Duck: I'm trying to get at the root of the issue. These "preconditions" you speak of. Why do they exist? Why doesn't heaven exist and nothing else? Why is it necessary for anyone to prove themselves? Why does some sort of test exist to get into heaven? I simply don't understand why there's nothing but heaven. I don't understand why this world exists at all!
Think about it this way. Just heaven, no hell. No earth. Just paradise that people are born directly into. Wouldn't thay be fucking great? No tests, no proof, nothing. Everyone is simply born into paradise and everyone's happy ever after. Can you imagine a more perfect, happy existence than that?

Rw: Been done already. The angels were created with free will, no price tag, carte blanch and lived in heaven. Many of them chose to rebel and hence the war in heaven. Man is the replacement for these creatures whose will must be tempered before achieving the status of “sons” of God.

Duck: Excuse the ignorance, but why is a tempered will a necessary attribute of the new creatures that populate heaven? Simply because God says so? Because the Bible says so? I don't get it at all.

Rw: See above.

Duck: RW, you say that mankind was lured to follow after the etc. etc.............
What lured mankind away. Is mankind naturally weak and prone to being lured away? Is mankind naturally strong but stronger forces can lure us away? You mention mankind's lust. Why does mankind possess such a negative emotion as lust? Is lust a natural state of mankind? If yes, then God included lust as part of behaviour, in which case it's hard to blame mankind for behaviours that God included in us. If not, then why do we feel lust?

Rw: Man was created neutral.

Duck: It's just that to me there's no consistency in Xtianity. It requires such mental gymnastics to reconcile the real world with Xtianity that I cannot possibly accept the truth of it. It takes an incredible level of self-deception to accept Xtianity that I couldn't possibly accept it. Not unless you shot me full of heroin could I defend Christianity.

Rw: Sorry to have caused any confusion.