Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Dr. Autonomo · 09-10-2002, 01:17 AM

my parents have recently become involved with a cult called "grace and truth". you can find their website under the url <a href="http://www.graceandtruth.net" target="_blank">www.graceandtruth.net</a>
i am wondering if anyone has some advice as to how to go about approaching the subject of the cult they are in and gaining some idea of what it is that they believe or have conviction about without it becoming a live sermon. also this last christmas they suddenly and i mean very suddenly renounced the holiday as pagan (which it is) and therefore of satan...because it is considered idolatry. so i questioned if they were going to not celebrate birthdays as well since that is probably the formost "idol" worshiping holiday to date. my mother repsonded that she wasnt sure. she would have to think about it and that she was just a beginner. she responded in complete seriousness...which was disturbing in itself. now they have, after about 6 months, decided to not to celebrate birthdays. i think they have a right to whatever they believe. however their convictions are as strong as a tinfoil. they will waver when it suits them and preach when it suits their purpose. typical theist of course. whats scary about this is that my mom went through a memorable cult phase during my teenage years about ten years ago. she took my sisters panties and put them in a bag and took them out side to the yard and burned them while blessing them and praying. this is just a small example. this is hilarious now but we had to live with her when we were young. eventually i had to leave at 15 because the insanity was intolerable. after a few years she seemed to calm down. and even went so far as to drink and talk about sex freely (make dirty jokes) etc. now it seems that the good times have drawn to a close and shes back in a different but as disturbing cult. is this a cycle? of course. does any one have information on cycles of cult worship and perhaps what phychological make-up is more apt to follow this?
thank you

HelenM · 09-10-2002, 02:51 AM

Well, you generally can't change other people. And if you believe it is wrong of them to try to persuade you to share their beliefs, it would be equally wrong for you to try to deconvert them, wouldn't it?

It sounds like your mother is drawn to extremes. Maybe this is to do with her personality.

I think the power lies with you, to make the choice to accept your parents as they are, or not to. You can decide not to smile sweetly when they try to convert you, while inside you are unmoved by their appeal...or you could use information on this site, say, to counter what they say. Which may make them angry or may make them decide you are an agent of the devil sent to destroy their faith...you might not want the relationship to go that way...

So, depending on the kinds of conversations you're willing to have with them, you could try to discuss religion with them - or not. You may not like where that leads in terms of it opening the door for them to try to convert you...or the conclusions they may draw about you.

In terms of what that 'cult' is, it looks like an relatively extreme (rigid, narrow) form of Bible-believing Christianity to me. So, if you read up about Bible-believing Christianity, most or all of what you read will probably apply to this group. Plus they may have some rules of their own that only certain Christian groups have; maybe they insist on using the King James Version; maybe they are fussy about dress; etc. Those nuances you can pick up from your parents if you care to discuss it.

I wish you the best in figuring out how to manage your relationship with your parents in view of their involvement with this group...

take care
Helen

Godless Dave · 09-10-2002, 05:44 AM

Is your dad slightly more rational or approachable than your mom? Can you tell him discreetly that you are concerned about your mother's mental health? Are they sending money to this group? Rather than talking about how looney this cult's beliefs are, you might get a better reception if you express concern that they may be taking advantage of your parents or hurting the family. IMHO the biggest problem with cults is the damage they do to people, not their loony beliefs per se.

Did your sister just not wear underwear for several years?

brighid · 09-10-2002, 05:59 AM

Whenever my mother has gone through fervent periods of religious worship it is a clear sign that her personal life is one hell of a mess. I can�t speak about your situation, but it is possible that something within her marriage or perhaps with her own mental health is going on to cause her to adopt such an extremist religious persuasion. Perhaps she is attempting to fill an emotional void, or mask over an emotional pain and this path seems to be easier then addressing the issues that are actually causing her problems. It is sad to me when people retreat into things like this, whether it be religion, booze, drugs, etc. I personally see it as a cry for help, but unfortunately you can�t help those who don�t think they have a problem. Helen�s advice is wise and it�s up to you to determine the boundaries of the relationship you have with your parents. They may not appreciate those boundaries, and in the case of my mother constantly attempt to usurp those boundaries and then blame me for setting them � but I digress! It won�t be easy, but sometimes you have to put a comfortable distance between yourself and crazy family members. They are adults and can choose whatever path they desire, even if it leads them to oblivion. I also think that any attempts at showing them the error of their ways will be futile, as the cult probably has a pretty strong mental grip over her (them.)

Good luck
Brighid

09-10-2002, 11:46 AM

Maybe she's having "the 40 year itch" and you should try burning her panties.

Dr. Autonomo · 09-10-2002, 04:54 PM

shes well past her 40's

Dr. Autonomo · 09-10-2002, 05:02 PM

i have many responses to these replys but will need a little time to sort them out

Starboy · 09-10-2002, 05:09 PM

Whe have had this discussion before with HelenM regarding teenagers. There is a possiblity of mental illness, such as manic depression. I am not an expert in this area by any means but I have seen it before.

Starboy

Dr. Autonomo · 09-10-2002, 07:03 PM

yes actually there is a history of border line personality disorder. my father (who is not my real father) is like a zombie. he does whatever my mom says. so when shes into something he is to. of course i am concerned about her mental illness. they are both rather unstable. my mother is obviously miserable in her marriage but has been married for 25+ years. i realize the underlying reasons for her cult involvement. when we have conversations about this, i just reiterate the same response generally, which is "i am not a christian". she becomes very sad and seems uncomfortable and lost. she has to have something to take up her time. she is severly depressed...she has to be...she sits around her house all day and listens to these sermons. she doesnt have many friends if at all other than the cult. it saddens me. but when i talk to her she has a tendancy to cross the line of what i feel is amiablility towards me. she is stuck at the time that i left the home at 15 years old. she resents me leaving her. and everything we talk about always has this nasty edge to it. after a few minutes she will always bring up some weird thing about when i was 15. i think she feels guilty and is obviously in serious denial. this used to bother me greatly because i had a form of symphathy for her. now i have no tolerance for it. i am 28 and i dont really want to be sucked into this demented disturbed mental russian roulette. she is manipulative and selfish. i guess i posted this thread just to maybe have an idea of the cult mentality. to better understand and so better deal with her obsession.
the panties thing was that my sisters panties were too "racy" which would promote sex and sin and so had to be burned because they were tainted with the a diabolical influence. she has also accused us of bringing in evil spirits or demons when my sister and i have walked in the front door. the next day its as if none of this has happened. i would love to have her get diagnosed and counseled. but we are both adults and she would not listen to me. she would say i was exaggerating. when we bring up the previous situations to her she says she never did that and that we are lying or imagining things. as a text book borderline personality sufferer she has also told people who started to listen to me as a teenager that i was a pathological liar ...she tried to convince my sister of this after i left home...because she had forgotten that my sister witnessed the whole thing. sometimes we think that she really doesnt remember and as such we are hesitant to feel anger or hostility towards her ...but half of the time we suspect she does remember and is just a malicious person. we dont know. living with a border line is like living in a tornado. you never know what is going on. at this point i do love her but at the same time cannot sometimes abide with the things she says and does towards me. it is impossible to discuss these things with her like a normal person. so i just have to accept that there is a phychological problem but not allow her to manipulate me. what i really am curious about is the cult personality or cult phychology involved. any statistics or research on it so that i can evaluate my next step ..if there is one

Godless Dave · 09-11-2002, 06:30 AM

That sounds like my maternal grandmother only for her it was alcohol not cults. If she will not even acknowledge she has problems there isn't anything you can do, except protect yourself. Get counseling for yourself if you need it.

09-10-2002, 01:17 AM	#1
Dr. Autonomo Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: tennessee Posts: 12	advice concerning grace and truth cult in which my parents my parents have recently become involved with a cult called "grace and truth". you can find their website under the url <a href="http://www.graceandtruth.net" target="_blank">www.graceandtruth.net</a> i am wondering if anyone has some advice as to how to go about approaching the subject of the cult they are in and gaining some idea of what it is that they believe or have conviction about without it becoming a live sermon. also this last christmas they suddenly and i mean very suddenly renounced the holiday as pagan (which it is) and therefore of satan...because it is considered idolatry. so i questioned if they were going to not celebrate birthdays as well since that is probably the formost "idol" worshiping holiday to date. my mother repsonded that she wasnt sure. she would have to think about it and that she was just a beginner. she responded in complete seriousness...which was disturbing in itself. now they have, after about 6 months, decided to not to celebrate birthdays. i think they have a right to whatever they believe. however their convictions are as strong as a tinfoil. they will waver when it suits them and preach when it suits their purpose. typical theist of course. whats scary about this is that my mom went through a memorable cult phase during my teenage years about ten years ago. she took my sisters panties and put them in a bag and took them out side to the yard and burned them while blessing them and praying. this is just a small example. this is hilarious now but we had to live with her when we were young. eventually i had to leave at 15 because the insanity was intolerable. after a few years she seemed to calm down. and even went so far as to drink and talk about sex freely (make dirty jokes) etc. now it seems that the good times have drawn to a close and shes back in a different but as disturbing cult. is this a cycle? of course. does any one have information on cycles of cult worship and perhaps what phychological make-up is more apt to follow this? thank you

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09-10-2002, 02:51 AM	#2
HelenM Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Ill Posts: 6,577	Well, you generally can't change other people. And if you believe it is wrong of them to try to persuade you to share their beliefs, it would be equally wrong for you to try to deconvert them, wouldn't it? It sounds like your mother is drawn to extremes. Maybe this is to do with her personality. I think the power lies with you, to make the choice to accept your parents as they are, or not to. You can decide not to smile sweetly when they try to convert you, while inside you are unmoved by their appeal...or you could use information on this site, say, to counter what they say. Which may make them angry or may make them decide you are an agent of the devil sent to destroy their faith...you might not want the relationship to go that way... So, depending on the kinds of conversations you're willing to have with them, you could try to discuss religion with them - or not. You may not like where that leads in terms of it opening the door for them to try to convert you...or the conclusions they may draw about you. In terms of what that 'cult' is, it looks like an relatively extreme (rigid, narrow) form of Bible-believing Christianity to me. So, if you read up about Bible-believing Christianity, most or all of what you read will probably apply to this group. Plus they may have some rules of their own that only certain Christian groups have; maybe they insist on using the King James Version; maybe they are fussy about dress; etc. Those nuances you can pick up from your parents if you care to discuss it. I wish you the best in figuring out how to manage your relationship with your parents in view of their involvement with this group... take care Helen

09-10-2002, 05:44 AM	#3
Godless Dave Contributor Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: With 10,000 lakes who needs a coast? Posts: 10,762	Is your dad slightly more rational or approachable than your mom? Can you tell him discreetly that you are concerned about your mother's mental health? Are they sending money to this group? Rather than talking about how looney this cult's beliefs are, you might get a better reception if you express concern that they may be taking advantage of your parents or hurting the family. IMHO the biggest problem with cults is the damage they do to people, not their loony beliefs per se. Did your sister just not wear underwear for several years?

09-10-2002, 05:59 AM	#4
brighid Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: somewhere in the known Universe Posts: 6,993	Whenever my mother has gone through fervent periods of religious worship it is a clear sign that her personal life is one hell of a mess. I can�t speak about your situation, but it is possible that something within her marriage or perhaps with her own mental health is going on to cause her to adopt such an extremist religious persuasion. Perhaps she is attempting to fill an emotional void, or mask over an emotional pain and this path seems to be easier then addressing the issues that are actually causing her problems. It is sad to me when people retreat into things like this, whether it be religion, booze, drugs, etc. I personally see it as a cry for help, but unfortunately you can�t help those who don�t think they have a problem. Helen�s advice is wise and it�s up to you to determine the boundaries of the relationship you have with your parents. They may not appreciate those boundaries, and in the case of my mother constantly attempt to usurp those boundaries and then blame me for setting them � but I digress! It won�t be easy, but sometimes you have to put a comfortable distance between yourself and crazy family members. They are adults and can choose whatever path they desire, even if it leads them to oblivion. I also think that any attempts at showing them the error of their ways will be futile, as the cult probably has a pretty strong mental grip over her (them.) Good luck Brighid

09-10-2002, 11:46 AM	#5
Amos Guest Posts: n/a	Maybe she's having "the 40 year itch" and you should try burning her panties.

09-10-2002, 04:54 PM	#6
Dr. Autonomo Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: tennessee Posts: 12	shes well past her 40's

09-10-2002, 05:02 PM	#7
Dr. Autonomo Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: tennessee Posts: 12	i have many responses to these replys but will need a little time to sort them out

09-10-2002, 05:09 PM	#8
Starboy Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Tallahassee, FL Reality Adventurer Posts: 5,276	Whe have had this discussion before with HelenM regarding teenagers. There is a possiblity of mental illness, such as manic depression. I am not an expert in this area by any means but I have seen it before. Starboy

09-10-2002, 07:03 PM	#9
Dr. Autonomo Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: tennessee Posts: 12	yes actually there is a history of border line personality disorder. my father (who is not my real father) is like a zombie. he does whatever my mom says. so when shes into something he is to. of course i am concerned about her mental illness. they are both rather unstable. my mother is obviously miserable in her marriage but has been married for 25+ years. i realize the underlying reasons for her cult involvement. when we have conversations about this, i just reiterate the same response generally, which is "i am not a christian". she becomes very sad and seems uncomfortable and lost. she has to have something to take up her time. she is severly depressed...she has to be...she sits around her house all day and listens to these sermons. she doesnt have many friends if at all other than the cult. it saddens me. but when i talk to her she has a tendancy to cross the line of what i feel is amiablility towards me. she is stuck at the time that i left the home at 15 years old. she resents me leaving her. and everything we talk about always has this nasty edge to it. after a few minutes she will always bring up some weird thing about when i was 15. i think she feels guilty and is obviously in serious denial. this used to bother me greatly because i had a form of symphathy for her. now i have no tolerance for it. i am 28 and i dont really want to be sucked into this demented disturbed mental russian roulette. she is manipulative and selfish. i guess i posted this thread just to maybe have an idea of the cult mentality. to better understand and so better deal with her obsession. the panties thing was that my sisters panties were too "racy" which would promote sex and sin and so had to be burned because they were tainted with the a diabolical influence. she has also accused us of bringing in evil spirits or demons when my sister and i have walked in the front door. the next day its as if none of this has happened. i would love to have her get diagnosed and counseled. but we are both adults and she would not listen to me. she would say i was exaggerating. when we bring up the previous situations to her she says she never did that and that we are lying or imagining things. as a text book borderline personality sufferer she has also told people who started to listen to me as a teenager that i was a pathological liar ...she tried to convince my sister of this after i left home...because she had forgotten that my sister witnessed the whole thing. sometimes we think that she really doesnt remember and as such we are hesitant to feel anger or hostility towards her ...but half of the time we suspect she does remember and is just a malicious person. we dont know. living with a border line is like living in a tornado. you never know what is going on. at this point i do love her but at the same time cannot sometimes abide with the things she says and does towards me. it is impossible to discuss these things with her like a normal person. so i just have to accept that there is a phychological problem but not allow her to manipulate me. what i really am curious about is the cult personality or cult phychology involved. any statistics or research on it so that i can evaluate my next step ..if there is one

09-11-2002, 06:30 AM	#10
Godless Dave Contributor Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: With 10,000 lakes who needs a coast? Posts: 10,762	That sounds like my maternal grandmother only for her it was alcohol not cults. If she will not even acknowledge she has problems there isn't anything you can do, except protect yourself. Get counseling for yourself if you need it.

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