Ranma Saotome

Okay, I'm an atheist, so I'm not talking about changing for the grace of God or anything. I'm just curious as to who here thinks it is mentally possible to change one's sexual orientation. There have been plenty of camps and conversion therapy programs, and one that claims a huge success rate is Dr. Nicolosi's Conversion Therapy.

So, is such a change possible? Has anybody ever converted without "serious psychological damage," as the APA warns against? Just as the public fears homosexuality, is it wrong for us to fear a therapy which might actually work?

seebs

I am agnostic, mostly, on this issue.

I think there are a few cases (think tens) of people whose sexual orientation has meaningfully shifted.

I think there are a handful of tolerably-real cases of people whose orientation shifted in some way based on external stimuli, but I think it's *RARE*.

Honestly, it's rare enough that I have absolutely no reason to believe that anyone who wasn't bisexual to start with has ever "changed" orientation. People can be mistaken in self-evaluation of sexual preference, making it very, very, hard to be sure.

I found a web site once ran by people who proudly proclaimed that they "chose" to be gay. The claims made were sufficiently implausible that I'm pretty sure it was fundies trolling for "evidence".

I think that, as a baseline, it is ludicrous to expect any specific person's orientation to be mutable, in the absence of concrete reasons to believe that person should be an exception to the general rule.

A sufficiently wacky understanding could probably make this go - for instance, redefining orientation as "behavior".

Many "cured" gay men are obliged to admit that they have no attraction to women, and that they have to fantasize about same-sex partners to have functional sex with opposite-sex partners.

Note that I don't know of ANY serious research into "curing" lesbians. So far as I can tell, 95% of all references to "homosexuality" in literature or study have been exclusively attached to gay men. I don't know why.

One thing I will say with some confidence: A particularly skilled straight lover of the opposite sex is *not* enough to change orientation, except in movies.

Alonzo Fyfe

This is not a moral question, but a scientific question -- because it has no moral relevance. If there is nothing wrong with being gay, then there is nothing wrong with CHOOSING to be gay. If there is something wrong with being gay, then it remains wrong even if people do not CHOOSE to be gay (just as rape would continue to be wrong even if we discover that people do not CHOOSE to be rapists).

Furthermore, even if homosexuality is not chosen, homosexual acts are as voluntary as any human action can be, so 'not chosen' simply does not apply.

So, ultimately, this question belongs in a science forum.

On this question, it is clearly possible, through experience, to rewire the brain -- to create new aversions and desires and to weaken old desires and aversions, through the appropriate experiences (or, perhaps, medication that affects the way the brain functions, e.g., chemical castration).

Furthermore, there are different types of homosexuality -- they have different causes. It is reasonable to expect that, for some forms, it will be easier to rewire the brain to bring about elicit behavior than there is for others.

Even where we can rewire the brain to elicit heterosexual behavior, do we do this in a way that benefits the individual. If they have a desire that P, but we do not want them to do P, we can either (1) weaken the desire that P, or (2) promote a conflicting desire that not-P (e.g., guilt) to the point that it is stronger than the initial desire. The second option, however, could create tension, anxiety, frustration, and such severe suffering that suicide seems a suitable way to end that suffering.

Anyway, we already have a very simple way of preventing a person from choosing to engage in homosexual acts -- Depo Provera (methoxy progesterone); a.k.a., chemical castration. The injection suppreses the sex drive significantly. Anybody who wishes to end their desire to engage in homosexual acts, should see your doctor and start getting the injection.

Ultimately, I wouldn't recommend it. Spending some time engaged in pleasurable homosexual acts is no more wrong than spending some time playing a computer game or watching some of one's favorite sit coms. Get the stupid idea out of your head that there is something wrong with it, and enjoy yourself so long as the enjoyment is not obtained at the expense of others.

Ranma Saotome

Sorry, you're right, this should be in the science thread.

So, the desire can be weakened, but not eradicated completely? Hmm, sounds more like repression to me--I'm talking more of a complete change.

True--so, if the actual cause for homosexuality was discovered and corrected, does this mean the desire would melt away? Or is such a desire there always, once again leading to more repression?

It could create--which means it could also not, if somebody was strong enough to fight against those feelings. So, then, is there truly an out if they make it through the emotional torment?

Ack, this sounds like repression again, which doesn't really conquer the attraction at all, it just supresses it, leaving a person as a non-sexually motivated homosexual instead of a sexually-motivated heterosexual.

I don't think there's anything wrong with it--I was just wondering what people's thoughts on these boards were about the possibility of change. The thing I worry about the most is whether or not I'm underdeveloped--if homosexuality is a sign that the male ego is not fully developed, if masculinity has escaped me somehow, and I am therefore not my true self. So, I wonder if finding my masculinity is a way to overcome homosexuality.

Amen-Moses

Can someone who likes chocolate ice cream but hates strawberry be made to change?

Personally I can't understand homosexual or heterosexual preference, my preference is for the person not what sex they are. If I am attracted to them regardless of their biology then I can quite easily engage in a physical relationship (given an equal willingness fom them of course), if I find them unattractive then I wouldn't be able to.

How can anyone honestly say they will never meet someone of the same sex (or of the opposite sex in the case of homosexuals) that they would find attractive?

Amen-Moses

The Other Michael

And off to S&S it goes.

cheers,
Michael
MF&P Moderator (Maximus)

Ranma Saotome

Actually, I've conditioned myself to enjoy olives and mashed potatoes, which I used to abhor...but that's a different subject.

Hmm, but doesn't that just make you a bisexual? I mean, I've been very attracted to a female's personality before, but the thought of physical contact is almost revolting at times. Perhaps it's something that can be conditioned also, but then I'd still have homosexual desires. Also, that would mean everybody would be bisexual if they were open-minded enough...and would I truly be attracted to women if I had to condition myself to it? I never needed any conditioning to want men, it just kind of happened. It seems like the desire for a male or female is more biological than anything, based on some sort of unexpressed need.

ps418

I'm not familiar with the science on this issue, but I would find highly implausible any suggestion that someone like myself, attracted to the opposite sex, could be made to be attracted sexually to members of the same sex. Therefore, I would tend to find it implausible that homosexuals can be made to be attracted to members of the opposite sex, at least reliably. But like I said, I haven't seen any actual research on this issue.

I can confidently say that I will never meet a male that I will be *sexually* attracted to (unless he's a convincing drag queen), just as I can say that I'll never meet a gastropod I want to eat. My aversion to same-sex sex partners is analogous to my aversion to eating snails. Its completely nonrational.

Patrick

Jennie

I've often thought that many of those cures must be of people who were actually bisexual, and their interest was just shifted to a person who happened to be the opposite rather than the same sex.

It's interesting that physical contact would be revolting. I'm female and hetero, yet it can still be nice to hug another person male or female. Or do you mean sexual contact?

Demosthenes

I'm highly skeptical of claims of successful conversions because in reality all of the "successful people" end up going back to their prior activity. Really, I wonder how long it's going to take people to get into their head that sexuality is a lot more hardwired than they've surmised. It won't also surprise me if some people truely have "converted", sexuality's such a highly ambiguous thing, it's doubly hard to categorize people in terms of their sexuality. We end up making up labels to make it easier to deal with life, but alas, as always, there are people who don't quite fit so neatly into our tidy categories. Those people end up having to suffer the society's prejudices and misunderstandings, it's sad really.

I'm primarily attracted to males but I've been attracted to women on occasions but never as strongly as I do for men. Honestly, having physical relationships with women will never work for me and neither do I want to have one.

When I first came out to my father, the first thing he asked me was

(rephrasing what happened)

"Are you sure?"

"Yes"

"Really sure? Maybe you ought see somebody first before confirming it"

"Dammit, I know who I am, yes I'm fucking sure"

While my father ultimately had no problem with my sexuality, after all in his own words, I'm still his son. It was still irritating to have my sexuality questioned simply because of the automatic default nature of heteronormativity.

To those overzealous people intent on reforming sexuality, what are you really doing? Helping other people or just bolstering your sexuality insecurity?