Rima

I agree

Imanuel is a Hebrew name meaning GOD IS WITH US , many Christians claim that : Imanuel mentioned in Isaiah 7:14 is actually a prophecy which proves Jesus`s divinity .


Izaija 7:14

14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

for the first time reading it may sound that is all about Jesus and OT prophecy but if we read this verse carefuly , we find that it says:" His name will be IMANUEL "

it did not say : he will be Imaneul (God is with us).

and these two statements have very different meanings .
Hebrew names have meanings , and if somebody`s name (God something) that does not give him a divine nature.
as a prove of my claim, there are too many similar verses just like:


Genesis 16:11

The angel of Yahweh said to her, “Behold, you are with child, and will bear a son. You shall call his name Ishmael, because Yahweh has heard your affliction.


Here we read about another prophecy , God`s angel came to Hager to tell her that she will give birth to a son and his name will be ISHMAEL (GOD WILL HEAR)

why don`t christians worship Ishmael

I mean look at the similarity between : Isaiah 7:14 and Genesis 16:11
both verses state :

and shall call his name Imanuel , Ishmael

Koyaanisqatsi

Most enjoyable bickering ever.

One little thing, Magus, the word is "tenet," not "tenant," unless you're talking about christian landlords. Just a pet peeve of mine.

Sorry to interrupt.

NOGO

Don't be ridiculous.

What you are saying is that God looks like a man and in particular Jesus of Nazareth with eyes, arms, legs, fingers, neurons etc. and all the limitation that all of that implies.

Have you ever heard of figurative speach?

9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
10 "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works.

Note verse 10 which comes right after what you quoted.

"Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me?

Jesus is asking a question and it is not about his physique.

"the words that I say to you I do not speak on my own initiative, but the Father abiding in me does his works"

With these words Jesus explains what he means by "he who has seen me has seen the Father".

He is definitely not talking about the shape of his eyebrows.
Jesus is saying that the Father within him is making him behave and speak like the Father. It is in this way that Jesus claims to be one with the Father.

I do not speak on my own initiative

please re-read this sentence over and over again until you understand it's implications. It implies two entities.

NOGO

Magus55

Look at it another way

John 1
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

Verses 2 and 3 in John 1 speak about the "WORD"

If the WORD is Jesus then Jesus created all of the universe according to John 1:3
THEN
How can this most powerful being say that he does nothing on his own initiative but the Father in him does His works????

The other possibility is that the WORD of God is God and is the Father as John 1 says and that it is this Entity which inhabits Jesus the man.

Jesus the man then says that he does not speak on his own initiative by the Entity (the Father, or the Word) within him does His works.

Check this verse

John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

The "Word of God" within Jesus has explained the Father.

Wayne P

Kilgore wrote:

I 'm sorry Kilgore, you're wrong. I tried this reasoning over on the Messianic Jews thread and was informed by both Magus and yguy that Magus is the ONLY authority on what Judaism believes.

Please keep this in mind when making assertions as to what Mainstream Jews do or don't believe.

Secular Pinoy

Darn, that is one airtight defense. I humbly retract all of my previous skepticism on Messianic Judaism. psst... sarcasm

But I'd still want to see magus demonstrate the divine nature of the messiah based on the Tanakh. Or the status of the Apocrypha as Jewish scripture, which, based on his logic, they must be.

Kilgore Trout

Thanks for pointing out my error. Normally I would apologize to Magus, but I think he gave up on this thread. Must be that he has no answer for the questions we are posing. Christian apologetic rule #1: When in doubt, ignore your adversaries.

NOGO

Christians and believers in general are in the business of ignoring the obvious. For examples just read posts from Magus55, Tercel, Layman, Bede and others on this board.

NOGO

Notice how Evangelion makes statements which he cannot defend and then leaves. Here are two.



Evangelion:
They certainly believed this before his death and resurrection, yes. But their views certainly changed when Christ was raised.


Nogo:
Paul believed it and it was certainly after Jesus' death.
Please provide evidence that their views changed.


Evangelion
Notice the context – “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am [he.]” This ties in with John 4:26 and John 8:24 (see above.) It is another Messianic claim. The Jews do not take it as a claim to deity, nor do they see it as blasphemous. (Notice also the complete absence of stones!)



Nogo:
You wanted to see stones ... you will find in the verse below ...

John 10:33
The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."


.... And then complete silence ...

Soul Invictus

Will you work with this for me? I was hoping to understand the dialogue with this example. Is your point that Jesus did not refute his mortality nor assert divinity? (which would effectively end that debate)

Regards