Keith

You seem to be changing the basis for your morality back and forth between "crowd consensus" and the golden rule. It is wonderful that you embrace the golden rule, but why should everyone else be morally bound to it?

Keith

I'm not asking your opinion about the morality of operating sweat shops, or whether certain kinds of campaign contributions should be illegal, I was just pointing out that if morality ought to be based upon whatever helps individuals get along in society, some individuals will decide that breaking the law is frequently going to help them get along in society.

Keith

So, as long as someone doesn't think it's morally wrong to cheat on their spouse, it is morally right?

Your golden rule morality is wonderful for YOU, but why does your wife or anyone else have to observe it?

Mageth

You seem to be changing the basis for your morality back and forth between "crowd consensus" and the golden rule.

You seem to have totally missed what I've said. What I said is that, ideally, we would all be better off if the "crowd consensus" was the "golden rule" (or better yet something like the modified golden rule I mentioned earlier). Wouldn't you agree with that?

It is wonderful that you embrace the golden rule, but why should everyone else be morally bound to it?

Another strawman. I never said that "everyone else should be morally bound to it." Morality, and adherence to a moral standard such as the one I suggested, is voluntary by nature. That's why I said "ideally"; in reality, not everyone is going to voluntarily follow such a moral standard. That's why societies have developed moral systems with rewards and punishments for various behaviors. In a society, certain moral standards may be enforced by law or otherwise - e.g. in our society, murderers are hopefully arrested, judged and punished. Certain moral standards may be rewarded when followed - e.g. you may get a reward if you return a money bag you found in the street to the bank.

So there are various levels of moral systems to which I adhere. But I consider the superior moral standard to be the modified "golden rule" I mentioned (and the few others), and I consider that the highest moral standard to which I adhere.

Interestingly, following that moral standard allows me to get by n this society without violating any of the codified or other restrictions on moral behavior, and thus without getting crossways with the law, and helps me realize many of the rewards of good moral behavior.

However, under the Biblical Law moral standard of OT Israel, following tha moral standard could well have gotten me in trouble, as using it I would have refused to kill homosexuals, participate in the murder and rape of the Canaanite cities, or kill my own child if he cursed me, and thus violated the OT moral standard supposedly handed down by God!

BTW, you have a habit of taking what I say and getting it all twisted up into something I didn't say - i.e. a strawman. Is this intentional or accidental, merely indicating a lack of understanding?

Mageth

Well, of course, that's true, but society has controls for that kind of behavior, doesn't it? It's our nature that for some of us a "carrot-and-stick" approach is necessary to control our behavior. It's a system that works relatively well, I would say.

Mageth

Originally posted by Keith
So, as long as someone doesn't think it's morally wrong to cheat on their spouse, it is morally right?

Another strawman. One more time: Under a moral system that doesn't consider cheating on your spuose morally wrong, it is not morally wrong to cheat on your spouse. This "someone" has a personal moral standard that doens't consider it morally wrong to cheat on his or her spouse. But the person may also live in a city, state, country, or world, may be an adherent of a religion, and/or may work for a company that has a moral system under which the "someone" is under that does consider it morally wrong to cheat on your spouse. The cheater may be punished for his or her cheating under one or more of those moral systems. So it may be morally wrong under one moral standard or another for that person to cheat on their spouse even though they don't personally consider it morally wrong. If the person does not live under any moral system that considers it wrong to cheat on their spouse, then it is not morally wrong for that person to cheat on their spouse.

Your golden rule morality is wonderful for YOU, but why does your wife or anyone else have to observe it?

I didn't say anyone else had to observe it, I said it would be better for them, and everyone, if they and everyone else did.

Mageth

BTW, Keith, what exactly is your definition of "cheating on your spouse"? Having sex with someone other than your current wife or husband?

Keith

Yes, that's what I meant.

Mageth

Well, then, Abraham and many other OT characters were guilty of that. Was it or was it not morally wrong for Abraham to have sex with Hagar while married to Sarah?

Whatta you know, yet another example of the "objective" foundation for morals that the Bible provides us.

Keith

True, but our society is not just desirable to people because we punish people for breaking our laws, our society is free and prosperous mainly because our laws presuppose inherent individual human rights. Do you agree that we humans have inherent human rights?