Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Bree · 04-01-2002, 08:04 AM

Growing up as a Baptist, I was always taught that Jesus was immaculately conceived by the Holy Spirit. I always had this image of a dove coming down to rest on Mary's tummy and it suddenly swelling up. Coincidentally I also was terrified that I would somehow immaculately conceive...but that's another story

.

At any rate - one of my Catholic coworkers informed me that Jesus wasn't immaculately conceived - Mary was. In order for Mary to be the vessel for such an important happening, she had to be clean and so she was born without Original Sin as well.

Okay - I couldn't find ANYTHING in the Bible that corresponded with this story. The only reference to immaculate conception was in reference to Jesus - that a "virgin shall conceive" and bear a son. Where did this new part come from?

Jayhawker Soule · 04-01-2002, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bree:
At any rate - one of my Catholic coworkers informed me that Jesus wasn't immaculately conceived - Mary was. In order for Mary to be the vessel for such an important happening, she had to be clean and so she was born without Original Sin as well.

Okay - I couldn't find ANYTHING in the Bible that corresponded with this story. The only reference to immaculate conception was in reference to Jesus - that a "virgin shall conceive" and bear a son. Where did this new part come from?

Quote:

In the Constitution Ineffabilis Deus of 8 December, 1854, Pius IX pronounced and defined that the Blessed Virgin Mary "in the first instance of her conception, by a singular privilege and grace granted by God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race, was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin."

From <a href="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm" target="_blank">Immaculate Conception</a>

sidewinder · 04-01-2002, 08:33 AM

The Catholic Church is good at making stuff up (e.g. Purgatory, infallibility of the Pope, etc.)when it faces problems. I suppose somewhere along the way, after Jesus was officially declared to be Yahweh incarnate, someone asked how Jesus could be free from original sin if Mary had it. Mary had to be free from original sin because Jesus had to be free from original sin since he was Yahweh incarnate. It still amazes me that seemingly intelligent people swallow all this bullshit.

Pomp · 04-01-2002, 11:45 AM

Mary had to be free from original sin because Jesus had to be free from original sin since he was Yahweh incarnate. It still amazes me that seemingly intelligent people swallow all this bullshit.

My memory is a bit hazy, but I'm pretty sure that my Catholic school religion classes taught us that Jesus was not free from OS because he had to be a sinner to redeem all us other sinners. She had to be free just bear Yahweh incarnate, not in order to allow Yahweh incarnate to be free of sin. Nesides, if the mohter must be free of sin to bear a sinless child, we get a fun regression. All women must have been sinless all the way back to Eve in order for Jesus to even exist.

04-01-2002, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bree:
Growing up as a Baptist, I was always taught that Jesus was immaculately conceived by the Holy Spirit. I always had this image of a dove coming down to rest on Mary's tummy and it suddenly swelling up. Coincidentally I also was terrified that I would somehow immaculately conceive...but that's another story

.

At any rate - one of my Catholic coworkers informed me that Jesus wasn't immaculately conceived - Mary was. In order for Mary to be the vessel for such an important happening, she had to be clean and so she was born without Original Sin as well.

Well Bree, it is in the bible but is not meant for Baptists to get a hold of an run away with. Mary is very enigmatic and therefore will remain virgin because each one of us must be reborn via the Immaculate Conception. Mary is the womb of man (woman) described in Gen.2 as "bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh" and is therefore the blueprint of [each] man in which we are made after the image of man. Mary is sinless because the fall of man occured outside our soul which is why we have both a mind and a lymbic system.

In case you think you do not have a soul ask yourself if you are alive when you ar not consciously aware (such as when you are asleep or are daydreaming). Kind of just opposite to Cogito ergo sum, you might say, because your soul takes care of you even when you are not rational.

The Immaculate Conception is indeed the awakening of Mary via the angel Gabriel (we all have one of these too), to give birth to the inner child that has been left behind since we took up residence in our lymbic system (ask Rene Descartes). The liberation of Mary to give birth to this child is the beginning of getting to know who you really are in the Immaculate Conception (the Loretta Lithany will tell you the rest).

sidewinder · 04-01-2002, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pompous Bastard:
Mary had to be free from original sin because Jesus had to be free from original sin since he was Yahweh incarnate. It still amazes me that seemingly intelligent people swallow all this bullshit.

My memory is a bit hazy, but I'm pretty sure that my Catholic school religion classes taught us that Jesus was not free from OS because he had to be a sinner to redeem all us other sinners. She had to be free just bear Yahweh incarnate, not in order to allow Yahweh incarnate to be free of sin. Nesides, if the mohter must be free of sin to bear a sinless child, we get a fun regression. All women must have been sinless all the way back to Eve in order for Jesus to even exist.

I think the teaching is that Jesus was perfect and sinless, which includes being free from OS. He had to live a sinless life and be free from OS to be sacrificed for all sinner's. Apparently, Yahweh needed to kill a sinless man to redeem us sinners.

04-01-2002, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pompous Bastard:
[b]Catholic school religion classes taught us that Jesus was not free from OS because he had to be a sinner to redeem all us other sinners. She had to be free just bear Yahweh incarnate, not in order to allow Yahweh incarnate to be free of sin.

Jesus was free from sin (there is no sin in purgatory and the gospels take place in purgatory) but bore the sins of his world to the cross in effort to be set free from sin prior to resurrection. The sins of his world were the sins of Joseph in whom Christ (God) was reborn to give Jesus the "God/man" identity while on earth. The transformation of earth into heaven was done through the crucifixion of the "man" identity in conjunction with the full recognition of the Christ identity while on earth (later the Jesus identity was placed subservient to the Christ identity in the Upper room).

If Mary would have been defiled resurrection could not have followed the event because the Magi could not have followed the Morning Star (Mary) to Bethlehem. "Yahweh incarnate" is the right words to use if Epiphany must reveal the blueprint of "son of man."

The sin against the HS is equal to the "hymen" rupture of Mary in which case Eve will sketch the bleuprint for renewal and the final imposter will be provoked.

Tristan Scott · 04-01-2002, 12:56 PM

I think the earliest reference to Mary's Immaculate Conception would be The Protoevangelum of James, an apochryphal piece written prior to the second century. A lot of the myth is contained there, but since many parts of it disagree with the gospels it was not considered for canon.

[ April 01, 2002: Message edited by: Tristan Scott ]

Pomp · 04-01-2002, 01:19 PM

sidewinder,

I think the teaching is that Jesus was perfect and sinless, which includes being free from OS. He had to live a sinless life and be free from OS to be sacrificed for all sinner's. Apparently, Yahweh needed to kill a sinless man to redeem us sinners.

After some digging in the Catholic Encyclopedia, I see that you are correct. My memory is hazier than I thought.

The whole notion still strikes me as asenine. If Yahweh needed a sinless mother in order for Jesus to be sinless, then it follows that Yahweh needed a sinless mother in order for Mary to be sinless. That woman, in turn, would have needed a sinless mother, and so on, all the way back to Eve. At least half of the human race (assuming that the fathers needn't be sinless) was always exempt from OS. Of course, one could claim that Yahweh could interrupt the chain at any time and just make any one of those women sinless (as he is, apparntly, claimed to have done at the last link in the chain, Mary), but why the hell couldn't he do that for his own incarnation? Why arbitrarily make Mary sinless if there was no need?

Do theologians not see the ridiculous nature of their work?

No Quarter · 04-01-2002, 01:32 PM

I have an image of Mary, legs thrown over the traveling wine merchant's shoulders, getting the hell shagged out of her while Joseph is off working somewhere. Mary is sweating up a storm and the wine merchant is just driving her head through the wall of the hut and sweating all over her and grunting like a rutting boar.

When she turns up pregnant - Ladies and Gentlemen we are presented with perhaps the greatest instance of "goddidit" ever foisted upon humanity!

Meanwhile, the wine merchant is bragging to his buddies about the hot little jewish girl he plowed a few weeks back...

No Quarter (How's that for a first post?)

04-01-2002, 08:04 AM	#1
Bree Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Twin Cities, USA Posts: 3,197	Immaculate Conception? Growing up as a Baptist, I was always taught that Jesus was immaculately conceived by the Holy Spirit. I always had this image of a dove coming down to rest on Mary's tummy and it suddenly swelling up. Coincidentally I also was terrified that I would somehow immaculately conceive...but that's another story . At any rate - one of my Catholic coworkers informed me that Jesus wasn't immaculately conceived - Mary was. In order for Mary to be the vessel for such an important happening, she had to be clean and so she was born without Original Sin as well. Okay - I couldn't find ANYTHING in the Bible that corresponded with this story. The only reference to immaculate conception was in reference to Jesus - that a "virgin shall conceive" and bear a son. Where did this new part come from?

04-01-2002, 12:56 PM	#8
Tristan Scott Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Southwest USA Posts: 4,093	I think the earliest reference to Mary's Immaculate Conception would be The Protoevangelum of James, an apochryphal piece written prior to the second century. A lot of the myth is contained there, but since many parts of it disagree with the gospels it was not considered for canon. [ April 01, 2002: Message edited by: Tristan Scott ]</p>

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04-01-2002, 08:33 AM	#3
sidewinder Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: omnipresent Posts: 234	The Catholic Church is good at making stuff up (e.g. Purgatory, infallibility of the Pope, etc.)when it faces problems. I suppose somewhere along the way, after Jesus was officially declared to be Yahweh incarnate, someone asked how Jesus could be free from original sin if Mary had it. Mary had to be free from original sin because Jesus had to be free from original sin since he was Yahweh incarnate. It still amazes me that seemingly intelligent people swallow all this bullshit.

04-01-2002, 11:45 AM	#4
Pomp Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Indianapolis area Posts: 3,468	Mary had to be free from original sin because Jesus had to be free from original sin since he was Yahweh incarnate. It still amazes me that seemingly intelligent people swallow all this bullshit. My memory is a bit hazy, but I'm pretty sure that my Catholic school religion classes taught us that Jesus was not free from OS because he had to be a sinner to redeem all us other sinners. She had to be free just bear Yahweh incarnate, not in order to allow Yahweh incarnate to be free of sin. Nesides, if the mohter must be free of sin to bear a sinless child, we get a fun regression. All women must have been sinless all the way back to Eve in order for Jesus to even exist.

04-01-2002, 01:19 PM	#9
Pomp Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Indianapolis area Posts: 3,468	sidewinder, I think the teaching is that Jesus was perfect and sinless, which includes being free from OS. He had to live a sinless life and be free from OS to be sacrificed for all sinner's. Apparently, Yahweh needed to kill a sinless man to redeem us sinners. After some digging in the Catholic Encyclopedia, I see that you are correct. My memory is hazier than I thought. The whole notion still strikes me as asenine. If Yahweh needed a sinless mother in order for Jesus to be sinless, then it follows that Yahweh needed a sinless mother in order for Mary to be sinless. That woman, in turn, would have needed a sinless mother, and so on, all the way back to Eve. At least half of the human race (assuming that the fathers needn't be sinless) was always exempt from OS. Of course, one could claim that Yahweh could interrupt the chain at any time and just make any one of those women sinless (as he is, apparntly, claimed to have done at the last link in the chain, Mary), but why the hell couldn't he do that for his own incarnation? Why arbitrarily make Mary sinless if there was no need? Do theologians not see the ridiculous nature of their work?

04-01-2002, 01:32 PM	#10
No Quarter Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: A place so dense a tablespoon of it would weigh as much as 10,000 battleships Posts: 86	I have an image of Mary, legs thrown over the traveling wine merchant's shoulders, getting the hell shagged out of her while Joseph is off working somewhere. Mary is sweating up a storm and the wine merchant is just driving her head through the wall of the hut and sweating all over her and grunting like a rutting boar. When she turns up pregnant - Ladies and Gentlemen we are presented with perhaps the greatest instance of "goddidit" ever foisted upon humanity! Meanwhile, the wine merchant is bragging to his buddies about the hot little jewish girl he plowed a few weeks back... No Quarter (How's that for a first post?)

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