Toefur

I posted <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=45&t=001194" target="_blank">this</a> quiz in my journal and a Christian friend of mine responded to it saying...

Okay, I probably didn't need to post all that; but oh well.

Firstly, I hardly see how two computer game systems made be different manufacturers can be compared to books that are inspired by the word of God... but anyway...

What is this about, "The legalism in the OT being made redundant".

How can this possibly be? If the OT was the word of God, how can God's word be made redundant? If God is Omniscient/potent/whatever God would not be capable of changing his beliefs and laws, would he?

Then I wonder, what things exactly from the OT are redundant? Which things are still correct? And surely the OT isn't important if it's redundant, but if bit's of the OT are redundant, how can we trust any of it as being the word of god?

Maybe there are some topics I can research (online - because none of the local libraries have any good books on Christianity, save for ones helping one attain a better relationship with god, etc), or perhaps some people here can explain to me some of these things?

Cheers.

[ October 11, 2002: Message edited by: Toefur ]</p>

Geoff Hudson

So what is the ORIGINAL version of the OT? I would really like to know.

Geoff

galiel

The Hebrew and Aramaic versions, as more recently revised based upon the Dead Sea Scrolls. Although the Dead Sea Scrolls included some "books" that are not part of the traditional cannon.

Any version you pick is still full of so much horror, hostility, internal contradictions and laughable pseudo-science, that it doesn't really matter. Believe me, I had to study them, in the original languages, all through school in Israel (except Job, of course. And the Song of Songs).

Geoff Hudson

Galiel,

I think I might have felt the same as you, if I had to learn as you did when I was at school.

Do you agree that the OT books matter because they affect the lives of so many people?

Do the DSS include complete books of the OT? What sort of dates are put on the OT scrolls? Are there published English versions of the revised Hebrew and Aramaic versions?

Geoff

CX

As far as I know, the DSS contains parts of every book of the OT but one. Some books (like the pentateuch) are mostly complete. Abegg et al have a translation of the Biblical DSS in English available at Amazon.com. The DSS scrolls are roughly 1000 years earlier than the next earliest OT MSS we have.

Kosh

You are correct. Thiests are notorious for making analogies which do not really fit the situation.

I wonder if redundant isn't the wrong word. Let's look at what Webster has to say:

1 a : exceeding what is necessary or normal : SUPERFLUOUS b : characterized by or containing an excess; specifically : using more words than necessary c : characterized by similarity or repetition &lt;a group of particularly redundant brick buildings&gt; d chiefly British : no longer needed for a job and hence laid off
2 : PROFUSE, LAVISH
3 : serving as a duplicate for preventing failure of an entire system (as a spacecraft) upon failure of a single component

If we got by (3), then it would imply that you SHOULD follow the OT since it's making sure you understand what God wants.

I would bet what he really means is that it's obsolete This is what most Christians do. They don't want to follow the OT, so they claim that the NT supercedes it. The NT is, afterall, a "kindler, gentler" type of "law". This is how Christianity was sold to the world.

YOu are correct. However, since the whole thing was made up by a bunch of Ignorant Bronze Age Goat Herders, it has all the markings of the beliefs and laws of MAN. The whole religion has a history of morphing itself to maintain it's appeal to the current culture.

Easy. The ones that don't fit our culture anymore. Except for the tithing part. That will never be ignored by the churches...

The ones that we like.

BINGO!

Welcome to "Salad Bar Christianity". Take what you like, leave what you don't.

Geoff Hudson

CX,

Thankyou. I will probably get the paperback edition which is due out this month.

There remains the possibility that even this older bible could still be influenced by Greek ideas, or by particulear sectarian beliefs. I am beinning to think that similar treatments have been meted out to the OT, NT and Josephus, particularly with regard to the Spirit of God, going as far back as Genesis and Exodus.

Geoff

Belle

Um hi everyone. I'm just lurking for the sake of knowledge. Don't mean to intrude too much. Regardless, I hope one of you can clarify something for me.

When Christians say that they "live by the laws of the NT" and the OT laws were negated by Jesus what verse or chapter in the NT says this? If not a verse then what?

I remember being told a few thousand times by those wonderful Southern baptists that it was because Jesus died for our sins, but that hardly makes sense. Is THAT what their excuse for denying God's word is based on or is it something else?

I'll check for replys when I get back from that neighborhood stoning. I told that smutty bimbo she shouldn't wear a polyester weave with rayon.

Belle

WRW Mattfeld

Dear Belle,
They are probably referring to the words of the Apostle Paul (Romans 7-13). He argues that the Old Testament's Laws (Hebrew: Torah) given by Moses are good, but that sinful flesh can never be saved, because the flesh is at war with the law. Christ's death ends the need to obey Torah, righteoussness via faith in Christ and works of Love will save one. The Torah is dead.

I have several articles on the origins of beliefs and worldviews enunciated in the New Testament by the Early Christians. You may want to access them under my NT Menu. Cf. my index page at <a href="http://www.bibleorigins.net" target="_blank">http://www.bibleorigins.net</a>

All the best, Walter